Home made CNC Parts - legal?

I'm working on several 3D concepts with a friend of mine and we were talking about 3D printing parts for aesthetic mods on our beloved models. He recently mentioned - what the hell took him so long? - his father is working in a metal factory using CNC and might be able to provide us parts for our project.
Now in regards to such an exciting potential, I would like to make sure our project is legal (in EU, in Germany).
Our goal is not to produce anything dangerous, of course, but parts like, for instance, the ones needed to turn a Beretta M93R into Robocop's Auto 9.

Any thoughts?

Ever thought about a kit to turn a GBB bolt into a PFC bolt and a plastic chamber that will accept a detonator?
Think of all the VFC MP5s turned into CP-HW... will spare me a lot of work ;-)

hkfan wrote:

Ever thought about a kit to turn a GBB bolt into a PFC bolt and a plastic chamber that will accept a detonator?
Think of all the VFC MP5s turned into CP-HW... will spare me a lot of work ;-)

Do this and I will make you rich. Well I'll pay you some money!

hkfan wrote:

Ever thought about a kit to turn a GBB bolt into a PFC bolt and a plastic chamber that will accept a detonator?
Think of all the VFC MP5s turned into CP-HW... will spare me a lot of work ;-)

Yeah! actually yeah! But it needs some serious work and I still have no clue if it's legal or not. :/

Does anybody have contacts to importers of modelguns that went through the process of obtaining a permit to import modelguns or even - in case of our British friends - modify or build from scratch? Not exactly mods of existing guns into (externally) different ones (e.g. turn an MAC 11 into a micro Uzi), since those mods might still be considered the original gun.

Since the discussion started in Germany and German authorities tend to say that everything that isn't explicitly allowed by law is forbidden, we should try to contact (local) importers or manufacturers about their experiences. Unfortunately I cannot find the paperwork from German federal police (BKA Feststellungsbescheid) that once was online about classifying model guns as toys and therefore negating the necessity of regulations or a permit of any kind.
Maybe I can ask a gunsmith about the legal situation of model gun 'toys' and building or modifying them, or the 'local' wholesaler (Frankonia).

Anyway, whatever parts were to be used, they should better be made of plastic, ABS preferably. I just don't have the slightest idea which materials are available for 3D-printers that fulfil the strength requirements...

For the UK, there are no permits per se for model guns or replicas, only the means to avail yourself to the correct exemptions under the Violent Crimes Reduction Act. Only real firearms require a license of some description or another. However the manufacture of replica weapons must first and foremost conform to the Firearms Act and depending on the nature of the replica weapon, must now also be constructed of certain materials as per recent amendments to the previous Violent Crimes Reduction Act. Modelguns are no exception to this rule.

When I last checked, UK classification for modelguns came under the category of toy guns due to their construction materials. I forget what the HMRC classification number was. The former Forensic Science Service (UK Home Office firearms examiner and now disbanded) also classed modelguns as harmless non readily convertible toy guns several years back.

There are no permits or licenses required in order to construct replica weapons, however the individual doing the construction must be able to avail themselves to the relevant exemption under the VCR Act UNLESS the constructed replica is 51% approved colour (ie pink/white/blue etc and otherwise known as a IF - Imitation Firearm). Only if the replica is of a non approved colour percentage - RIF Replica Imitation Firearm - does it then require said exemption.

So in a nut shell, a person in the UK can make whatever replica they want providing it is 51% approved colour and does not require any permission whatsoever. If it is anything but 51% approved colour - exemption required.

Isn't it 'Realistic' Imitation Firearm?

Yep, well spotted. Should have read realistic not replica. Brain fart moment.

cosmitron wrote:

hkfan wrote:

Ever thought about a kit to turn a GBB bolt into a PFC bolt and a plastic chamber that will accept a detonator?
Think of all the VFC MP5s turned into CP-HW... will spare me a lot of work ;-)

Yeah! actually yeah! But it needs some serious work and I still have no clue if it's legal or not. :/

I asked the gunsmith I mentioned, he told me to steer clear of model guns, PFC and fire caps, due to the fact that they contain - albeit minuscule amounts of - explosives, and are therefore prohibited.

After some browsing I found the classification letter of German Federal Police (which I am still not able to post as a new member) concerning model guns and Fire Caps. They were asked to class a Marushin Uzi, PFC "cartridges" and Marushin 7mm Fire Caps by several state authorities.
Result:

• 'gun' and 'cartridges' were classified as toys, since they are neither capable of nor can be converted to fire projectiles.
  
• fire caps are pyrotechnics, but are exempt due to the fact that they are intended for toys and therefore to weak to do any damage.

So, I guess any 'external' modification of an existing model gun that does not alter any of its internals, will not change its classification as a toy. Therefore turning a M93R into a Robocop Auto 9 shouldn´t pose much of a problem.
Putting existing parts of a (former) model gun into another "shell" shouldn´t be, either.
When it comes to starting from scratch and building a completely new model gun, I don´t know. That can depend heavily on the person who has to decide about the fate of a seized "gun". And might end in an extremely expensive expertise from Federal German Police.

Plan B - some of the companies listed in the collection of classification letter - HzA Kulmbach, Sportsysteme Dittrich - offer semi auto 'replicas' of full auto machine guns/assault rifles/submachine guns as well as non-functional models (but not model gun). Maybe they can give a hint which features have to be omitted and which have to be included to prevent a conversion into a firearm.
But enough for tonight. It´s been a looong day...

hkfan wrote:

cosmitron wrote:

hkfan wrote:

Ever thought about a kit to turn a GBB bolt into a PFC bolt and a plastic chamber that will accept a detonator?
Think of all the VFC MP5s turned into CP-HW... will spare me a lot of work ;-)

Yeah! actually yeah! But it needs some serious work and I still have no clue if it's legal or not. :/

I asked the gunsmith I mentioned, he told me to steer clear of model guns, PFC ans fire caps, due to the fact that they contain - albeit minuscule amounts of - explosives, and are therefore prohibited.

After some browsing I found the classification letter of German Federal Police (which I am still not able to post as a new member) concerning model guns and Fire Caps. They were asked to class a Marushin Uzi, PFC "cartridges" and Marushin 7mm Fire Caps by several state authorities.
Result:

• 'gun' and 'cartridges' were classified as toys, since they are neither capable of nor can be converted to fire projectiles.
  
• fire caps are pyrotechnics, but are exempt due to the fact that they are intended for toys and therefore to weak to do any damage.
  

So, I guess any 'external' modification of an existing model gun that does not alter any of its internals, will not change its classification as a toy. Therefore turning a M93R into a Robocop Auto 9 shouldn´t pose much of a problem.
Putting existing parts of a (former) model gun into another "shell" shouldn´t be, either.
When it comes to starting from scratch and building a completely new model gun, I don´t know. That can depend heavily on the person who has to decide about the fate of a seized "gun". And might end in an extremely expensive expertise from Federal German Police.

Plan B - some of the companies listed in the collection of classification letter - HzA Kulmbach, Sportsysteme Dittrich - offer semi auto 'replicas' of full auto machine guns/assault rifles/submachine guns as well as non-functional models (but not model gun). Maybe they can give a hint which features have to be omitted and which have to be included to prevent a conversion into a firearm.
But enough for tonight. It´s been a looong day...

a huge THANKS for these priceless informations!

hkfan wrote:

After some browsing I found the classification letter of German Federal Police (which I am still not able to post as a new member) concerning model guns and Fire Caps.

PM the letter to me and I'll upload it for you.

cosmitron wrote:

hkfan wrote:

cosmitron wrote:

hkfan wrote:

Ever thought about a kit to turn a GBB bolt into a PFC bolt and a plastic chamber that will accept a detonator?
Think of all the VFC MP5s turned into CP-HW... will spare me a lot of work ;-)

Yeah! actually yeah! But it needs some serious work and I still have no clue if it's legal or not. :/

I asked the gunsmith I mentioned, he told me to steer clear of model guns, PFC ans fire caps, due to the fact that they contain - albeit minuscule amounts of - explosives, and are therefore prohibited.

After some browsing I found the classification letter of German Federal Police (which I am still not able to post as a new member) concerning model guns and Fire Caps. They were asked to class a Marushin Uzi, PFC "cartridges" and Marushin 7mm Fire Caps by several state authorities.
Result:

• 'gun' and 'cartridges' were classified as toys, since they are neither capable of nor can be converted to fire projectiles.
  
• fire caps are pyrotechnics, but are exempt due to the fact that they are intended for toys and therefore to weak to do any damage.
  

So, I guess any 'external' modification of an existing model gun that does not alter any of its internals, will not change its classification as a toy. Therefore turning a M93R into a Robocop Auto 9 shouldn´t pose much of a problem.
Putting existing parts of a (former) model gun into another "shell" shouldn´t be, either.
When it comes to starting from scratch and building a completely new model gun, I don´t know. That can depend heavily on the person who has to decide about the fate of a seized "gun". And might end in an extremely expensive expertise from Federal German Police.

Plan B - some of the companies listed in the collection of classification letter - HzA Kulmbach, Sportsysteme Dittrich - offer semi auto 'replicas' of full auto machine guns/assault rifles/submachine guns as well as non-functional models (but not model gun). Maybe they can give a hint which features have to be omitted and which have to be included to prevent a conversion into a firearm.
But enough for tonight. It´s been a looong day...

a huge THANKS for these priceless informations!

DNF.
You´re welcome!

stumpy_ned wrote:

hkfan wrote:

After some browsing I found the classification letter of German Federal Police (which I am still not able to post as a new member) concerning model guns and Fire Caps.

PM the letter to me and I'll upload it for you.

"New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days. Please contact the forum administrator for more information."
How can I attach a .pdf to a PM? Haven´t seen any button to do so...

hkfan wrote:

stumpy_ned wrote:

hkfan wrote:

After some browsing I found the classification letter of German Federal Police (which I am still not able to post as a new member) concerning model guns and Fire Caps.

PM the letter to me and I'll upload it for you.

"New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days. Please contact the forum administrator for more information."
How can I attach a .pdf to a PM? Haven´t seen any button to do so...

http://convert.neevia.com/pdfconvert/

Guten Tag Hkfan...you can use this to convert your pdf into jpg then upload it to Photobucket (or whatever) and you know the rest   

hkfan wrote:

cosmitron wrote:

hkfan wrote:

Ever thought about a kit to turn a GBB bolt into a PFC bolt and a plastic chamber that will accept a detonator?
Think of all the VFC MP5s turned into CP-HW... will spare me a lot of work ;-)

Yeah! actually yeah! But it needs some serious work and I still have no clue if it's legal or not. :/

I asked the gunsmith I mentioned, he told me to steer clear of model guns, PFC and fire caps, due to the fact that they contain - albeit minuscule amounts of - explosives, and are therefore prohibited.

After some browsing I found the classification letter of German Federal Police (which I am still not able to post as a new member) concerning model guns and Fire Caps. They were asked to class a Marushin Uzi, PFC "cartridges" and Marushin 7mm Fire Caps by several state authorities.
Result:

• 'gun' and 'cartridges' were classified as toys, since they are neither capable of nor can be converted to fire projectiles.
  
• fire caps are pyrotechnics, but are exempt due to the fact that they are intended for toys and therefore to weak to do any damage.
  

So, I guess any 'external' modification of an existing model gun that does not alter any of its internals, will not change its classification as a toy. Therefore turning a M93R into a Robocop Auto 9 shouldn´t pose much of a problem.
Putting existing parts of a (former) model gun into another "shell" shouldn´t be, either.
When it comes to starting from scratch and building a completely new model gun, I don´t know. That can depend heavily on the person who has to decide about the fate of a seized "gun". And might end in an extremely expensive expertise from Federal German Police.

Plan B - some of the companies listed in the collection of classification letter - HzA Kulmbach, Sportsysteme Dittrich - offer semi auto 'replicas' of full auto machine guns/assault rifles/submachine guns as well as non-functional models (but not model gun). Maybe they can give a hint which features have to be omitted and which have to be included to prevent a conversion into a firearm.
But enough for tonight. It´s been a looong day...

Will PTB approval somehow required if you plan to build/sell cap firing guns domestically just like schreckschusspistole?

Given the classification as a toy by German Federal Police (BKA), I suppose a "proofing" by PTB will not be necessary, since it is not a firearm.
However, if one plans to build, market and sell model guns commercially, one should get a 'toy' classification by BKA before starting such a venture, just to be on the safe side. However, that is not guaranteed to stay that way forever, just wait until someone converts a soft air gun with a .22" barrel and corresponding bolt.
I don't intend to undertake the venture of producing model guns because it will be beyond my means technically, financially and timewise. And, since my "idea" involves starting off on a softair GBB, it would involve opening Pandora's box of trademarks and licenses.
A collaborative effort of members of the forum, on the other hand... teaming up the individual experience with model guns, cartridges, 3-D printing, materials and engineering and putting up D. I. Y. instructions on the Internet is something that might work and has a certain appeal.

Now, let's see if I am finally able to upload links:
Letter of classification for blow Back 'Weapons' by German Federal Police

Yup you did! Thanks!

I have been modifying pfc guns for years!! i have done alot in the line of cnc machining.. just like you said for robocops beretta i have done several full blown guns of the m93R .. i have never had a issue with selling them.. But then again i make movie props AND replicas for studios as well as private collectors. here is a image of my prototype robocop guns before i finished them in cnc. I am actually doing another set of 10 for myself. There is ALOT to that gun .. Grips , sight , barrel, compensator. Just make sure you spend time checking everything out. For my line of work i need to be SPOT on.. i had lots of time researching the real prop guns and making sure measurements are right! that image was a proto and was only half..