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Cerwyn
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PostSubject: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:11 pm


MP-41


My Model MP41


Real MP41

A

The MP40 was often called the "Schmeisser" by the Allies, after weapons designer Hugo Schmeisser, but, in fact, he did not design the MP40 but held a patent on the magazine.
Magazines were stamped with “Schmeisser” and so, we are led to belive, Allied troops picking up MP40s started calling them “Schmeissers.”
The MP-41 submachine gun, however, was developed by Hugo Schmeisser. He came from good lineage, his father, Louis Schmeisser developed the first practical machine gun, the MP18





At the time of development of the MP-41, the company C.G.Haenel, at which Schmeisser was chief designer, manufactured MP-40 submachine guns for the German army.
It is possible that Schmeisser decided to develop a submachine gun which was better suited for infantry use than the MP-40. One theory being that although the MP38 and MP40’s folding stock proved ideal for Armoured vehicle crews and Paratroops, it was not entirely suited to Hand to Hand combat situations where a solid club could, sometimes, prove effective.
He combined the receiver, action and magazine of the MP-40 with the wooden stock and selective-fire mechanism of the MP-28

MP-28




Haenel company produced only a few MP-41 submachine guns. These were mostly purchased by troops of the SS , which had their own supply chains. However, late in 1941 Erma company filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Haenel, and as a result, Haenel company was forced to close the production of the MP-41. Only 26,700 guns of MP-41 pattern were made during the war, (compared to approx 1 million MP38/40s)
The MP41 was not introduced as a service weapon with the German Army, but it did see limited use with some SS and police units.


The Modelgun


I thought a model MP41 would compliment my MP40 well so I set about finding one.
There were examples around, but not at prices I could afford so when an old Marushin MP41 wooden stock and lower receiver turned up I decided to build one using a spare ABS MP40 upper receiver tube, bolts and various other parts that I had available.


N.B. Manufacturing Replica Imitation Firearms is prohibited under the VCRA 2007 unless used for Re-enactment purposes. This particular model was built before October ’07.

As most Custom Builds probably go, the project turned out to be far from the easy build I’d envisaged.
Mismatched and worn out parts caused all manner of problems but the end result proved both successful and worthwhile.
The first major problem was that the ABS upper receiver had different profile locking lugs to the ones in the metal MP41 endcap. The two receiver halves would not twist and lock together as they needed to.

This is what the Metal Receiver Tube’s lugs look like…


And now the ABS Receiver Tube…




It’s essential that the receivers twist and lock together otherwise the two will fly apart during firing. My engineering skills are very limited both by the lack of tools and ability so I had to call in the experts for some help. Thank God for this forum, 8ace and Kickback put their heads together and came up with some ingenious solutions.
An adaptor ring custom machined by 8ace to match the abs receiver’s lugs was fitted inside the metal lower receiver’s end cap. This achieved a secure and firm fit. Perfect! The first major obstacle was out of the way.

The MP41 lower receiver had a notch cut out of its leading edge.



photo copied from www.modelguns-worldwide online catalogue

This meant that the upper receiver could not twist and locate itself behind the Magazine Well. A small section of steel was fabricated and welded into place fixing that particular problem.
The MP40 has a spring loaded Takedown pin located under the foregrip. The MP41 has a threaded Screw which has a slightly larger diameter. This was relatively easy to sort out by drilling out the matching hole in the Upper Receiver tube to fit.
Now that we had two matching receivers the rest of the gun could be built. Being standard MP40 abs Kit parts, the bolt assembly, barrel, magazine well and rear sights were assembled as per the kit instructions. The ejector was a straightforward fit too.
The telescopic recoil tubes, however, needed some modification. The MP40’s tubes have a conical metal tip



The metal MP41 end cap has a locating peg very similar to the MGC68 MP40 design which made removal of the conical tip necessary as well as drilling out the end of the plastic tube to allow it slide over the locating peg.
The recoil spring needed shortening to allow for the pegs’ length and would probably need further checking once the gun was ready for firing. (More of that later)

MP41s and MP40s differ in appearance not just by the wooden / collapsible stock. The Barrel Nut and Front Sights differ too. The ’41 wasn’t fitted with a Resting Bar under the barrel either.






Fortunately for me, the Stock’s supplier had very kindly given me the correct front sight parts which fitted onto the MP40 barrel easily.
My aim was to end up with a modelgun that represented an MP41 as close as possible. 8ace machined a custom Barrel “Nut” from scratch to replace the large hexagonal type fitted to the ‘40s.The end result, as you can see, looks just the part and is far closer to the MP41 than if it was still fitted with the MP40s hexagonal one. This was the perfect finishing touch.

Marushin’s MP41



photo copied from www.modelguns-worldwide online catalogue

8ace’s Barrel “Nut”





Test firing
The MP41 has a Selective Fire capability controlled by a simple push through “button” or switch just above the trigger. Pushing it through to the Left side as you hold the gun selects Full Auto, push to the Right for Single Shot.
Standard Marushin MP40/UZI cartridges were loaded into the magazine and the gun set to single shot.
Firing was very erratic. Pulling the trigger either resulted in the desired single shot and re-cocking or the gun would continue firing as if in Full Auto mode.

Worse still, releasing the trigger wouldn’t always control firing by stopping the bolts’ travel. The gun would sometimes continue firing with the trigger released until the magazine emptied.
Rate of fire in Full Auto appeared very fast too. Marushin’s abs MP40 does fire at a faster rate than the real guns’ 550-650 rpm but this sounded like it was even faster again.
Clearly we had a problem!

The Recoil Spring was too long causing it to bunch up under compression. The recoil tube is made up of three sections that “concertina” into each other as the spring inside is compressed. Bunching up the spring would kick one or more of the tubes’ sections out of line jamming it up. The bolt could not travel as far back up into the receiver as it should.
The recoil spring was cut down to match one I have in my MP40, and then a little more to mach the locating peg.
The three telescopic sections didn’t slide easily into each other so they were cleaned and polished up to remove any high spots and burrs.
This gave better results but we still had the problem of the gun continuing to fire even after the trigger was released.
Close inspection revealed that the sear was worn allowing the bolt to ride over it during firing. Being triangular in profile, dressing the worn edge with a file to give it a clean “sharp” edge wasn’t as successful as we’d hoped because the sear now sat lower in the receiver. The bolt continued to ride over it during firing with the trigger released.

The only answer was to make a new sear from steel.

Repaired Sear…






Test firing proved successful. The trigger controlled Automatic firing, the sear worked perfectly in both Semi and Full Auto… Finally my MP41 project was complete!












Video to follow ….

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Last edited by Cerwyn on Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:13 pm

Splendid !

It is amazing how much work you need to "just add a wooden stock" and make sure all details are correct.
Great that 8ace could help with making all additional/replacement parts :-)

And thank you for taking time to write it all down :-)))
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:31 pm

Thanks smootik,

I must admit the planned "easy" project turned out to be quite the opposite (as is often the case )
It took a long time to get everything sorted, I couldn't have done it without Kickback and 8ace's help and skill.
A lot of machining skill and repairing old and worn out parts went into this model. I'm very happy with it, and it fires well too, both in Full Auto and in Semi just as it should.

I should have the Video finished soon

Now, if i could get the parts to make an MP28 and MP18 ...

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:55 pm

Very nice build, and terrific history lesson, too.

JJ.
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:08 pm

pitfighter wrote:
Very nice build, and terrific history lesson, too.

JJ.

Thanks JJ, glad you enjoyed it
The more I look at the MP41, the more attractive a gun it becomes. There's something about that wooden stock that looks just "right"
What a pity the CAW MP18 is so rare and expensive, and wouldn't an MP28 make a beautiful modelgun

Building this MP41 was a mixture of frustration, joy, frustration again but completion into a working model was really satisfying. I'm ever grateful for the enormous amount of help I recieved, Thanks All...

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:44 pm

Frustration, joy, frustration... I think it is exactly what accompanies creation :-D

There is something special about submachine guns with a wooden stock... MP18, MP28, MP41, M31 and M44 Suomi, Beretta 38, PPSh 41, EMP 35, Lanchester, PPD 34, Type 100, Mors 39 and others. Wood is now too expensive in processing to be so extensively used, I guess, and also military use of SMGs has changed - folding wire stocks, smaller size, it all goes against wood :-( Just before WWII Poland designed Mors SMG, which was supposed to go to production in October 1939. One of just a few surviving guns was returned by Russians to Polish Military Museum in 1983. Many people say "it's a pity we didn't have more of these", but the truth is that at the time it was already an obsolete design. Too expensive to manufacture, with insufficient firepower, accurace, too heavy... I think the only mass-produced SMG to feature a full wooden stock (as opposed to short stub in Stg44 or Thompson, and not counting rifles) was PPSh 41.

Wooden stock is (probably) the easiest part to get. In Poland you can get a replica for about 25..40 GBP (depending on size and complication). Of course this is just a beginning, as Cerwyn has shown us there are many, many modifications that follow, even if you already have something to start with.

MP18... I was entertaining an idea of modifying a Sten replica to become MP18 (if legal etc). Granted, they differ a lot, but its a beginning! Sten evolved from Lanchester, which evolved from MP28, so why not go backwards ;-) Sten receiver with magazine well, add receiver end cap, replace trigger mechanism, mount in stock with a latch, make a barrel shroud and the main hinge... quite a lot of work.
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:14 pm

HI
That is a brilliant piece of kit an extremely good model
what's it fire like?

Keep it up it's brilliant

thanks
jake
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:03 am

Thanks Jake

It fires well now but it took a lot of sorting and fine tuning to get it right.
I'll try getting a video together asap

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sat May 17, 2014 8:01 am

Looking forward to seeing this video, Cerwyn.

I have found two MP41 kits, again, over the $2500 mark - looking for a nice Modelgun version.

My wood stocked SMG collection needs one, Smile

EMP35, MP34, PPsh41 -
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sat May 17, 2014 9:29 am

I'll have to get my act together and get this video sorted.  Embarassed I can't believe it's 5 years since I posted this thread up about my MP41  Shocked 
I have seen more than one Marushin '41 (metal & wood factory built) model on Yahoo Japan's Auction site so they're still around.
I too would like something like an MP28, MP35, they do look just "right"

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sat May 17, 2014 10:47 am

5 years and no video???? You're a disgrace!!! Pull your finger out laddie.  Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sat May 17, 2014 11:07 am

lampwick wrote:
5 years and no video????  You're a disgrace!!!  Pull your finger out laddie.  Wink 
 Crying or Very sad I know...

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sat May 17, 2014 6:16 pm

Video of test firing blanks in my PPsh41 - as motivation.
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun May 18, 2014 9:07 am

Hi JJ,

I can't open your video via Photobucket, I think it's because it's in your Private section  Question 
I would really like to see this   bounce  bounce  bounce 

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun May 18, 2014 12:13 pm

Works for me Smile
Nice job Pit !
Is it a live firer firing blanks? or pure blank firer..
I am going to take a guess that its a fresh built blank firer as the sparks in the flash look like metal particals burning.... I am  lol! probably wrong as usual though !!
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun May 18, 2014 12:48 pm

It still won't open for me  scratch All I get is a narrow white line on the PhotoB. page.
Does it open for you just by clicking the photo John  Question   

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun May 18, 2014 1:10 pm

Hi Cerwyn
Yes just clicking on the pic, not sure why not working for you ? though I have had problems over the last few weeks that seemed to be related to some windows updates causing graphic compatability issues Sad not resolved yet, had to move to new computer !!!
Are you on a HP computer?
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun May 18, 2014 1:30 pm

Hi John,
Hmmm, I'm using a Packard Bell laptop as I can't get to my Desktop

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun May 18, 2014 2:47 pm

You have to scroll all the way down the page to see the video which appears to have been shot on a moonless night through a screen door. Razz 
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Sun May 18, 2014 6:52 pm

It's shot in the work-shop - it's dark -
We were looking into stealing the flash and rotor scoping it onto another gun.
I keep my MG42 running on very low power blanks, they basically cycle the action, make some smoke, and a very small flash - it is safe on set, doesn't damage the gun and is very, very reliable.

I shot the PPsh footage in the above post, with my cell-phone to show the computer guys the muzzle flash - but it's just too strange looking.
We're probably going to use the MG15, as that is another VERY fast shooter -

This is the MG42 shooting the Austrian military blanks (Very low intensity) - the camera spinning around is a Phantom - it's triggering at 1500fps - so you basically see the shell cases suspended in mid air.
Both the leader actor, McCall and I are English, ex-pats, Ross was in Band of Brothers, and Green Street Hooligans - I'll show the slow-mo footage when the film is complete - so you will have to wait for that, sorry.


Here's the original vid Russian "papa jay."
It's a 1943 PPsh41 - the blanks are regular 9mm movie blanks.
The flash is deflecting at a strange angle as it hits the end of the shroud - watch any movie with a Ppsh41 firing and you'll see a similar effect, it also has a very high rate of fire, which creates a volume of unburned powder.
From the profile it actually has two flashes, one going forwards, and a second that goes up at 45 degrees or so.

This is the one in the vid.


My other wooden SmGs.

The Steyr MP34.


The Erma EMP35 (this is a La Coruna demilled copy.)


I'd like the MP41, and I have had two Beretta's but, I traded these on, these "exotic" guns hardly ever go out - except on my films - people wants AR's, AK's, MP5's - *There are several very well stocked rental houses that cater to modern firearms, I cannot compete with them, and have no desire to Smile

I think SMG's with wooden stocks look strangely old world elegant and have a visual flare to them that is cool.  Hence my having them in my collection/inventory.
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PostSubject: mp41   Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:43 pm

Great build cerwyn , I bought a denix mp41 a couple of years ago and just part exchanged it for an mgc mp40 !! , although as it happens I do have an mp28 , originally bought from zib militaria , with an original schmeisser mag ! , cheers Rich
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:40 pm

Thank you Richard  Very Happy 
My "To Do" list includes making a video of the MP41 firing. It was pointed out to me awhile ago I promised one 5 years ago  Embarassed 

I always liked the look of the MP28 (MP18 and MP34 too). I'd love one  Exclamation 

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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:23 pm

Richard, I would love to see pictures of your MP28 -
The Mp18, Mp28 have interested me a while, too.
But, they would work even less than my current wood stocks, and that isn;t much.
I did come across an Mp18 with Luger snail drum in CA - it was seriously rusty, and CA deactivated, which is a welded lump of metal, including a the mag.

Please post pics, if Cerwyn doesn't mind the thread jack, lol.

I wantonly presume others are like me and want to see pictures of nice guns, lol.
But this was a thread about a cool home built MP41 - so maybe we should start a thread for woodstock SMGs, that Japanese WW2 replica would be another.


Pit.
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PostSubject: Re: MP41 Custom Built Modelgun   Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:58 pm

Hi Pit'

A new thread starting with photos of a replica MP28 would be great  Very Happy 

I have a lot of photos of a Japanese wood stock SMG modelgun. I'll start a thread for that asap too

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