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 Cartridge Substitition Suggestions

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Cerwyn
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PostSubject: Cartridge Substitition Suggestions   Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:44 pm

Post by Mark

Modelguns, like other hobbies lend themselves to modifications well. Some are simple and easy to do and others are well, hard to accomplish. Cartridge interchange can be hard but, it is a worthwhile experiment.


Some manufacturers cartridges just seem to function better in certain modelguns than others, As an example, I have been successful at using Marushin Uzi/MP40 cartridges in my MGC MP40's even though the MGC SIG 220 cartridges will work somewhat better. I use the Marushin cartridges simply due to the fact that the Marushin cartridges are inexpensive and easy to obtain. The relative scarcity and expense of the MGC SIG 220 cartridges is the reason for this. (that, and I have 300+Marushin Uzi/MP40 cartridges helps)

Would other cartridges work better? Of course. But, their price and availability must be factored in if the modelgun in question is to be fired continually for any length of time. Sure, you can reload 15-20? MGC SIG 220 cartridges over and over fairly quickly and have some fun but...Its still a short quick burst and its over.

Other combinations like the use of the MGC Thompson cartridges in the Hudson M3A1 along with the proper detonator is also a good combination I understand. (although, I have yet to try it.)

Sadly, due to MGC's use of smaller than real cartridge diameter cartridges in some modelguns (like the earlier 1911, Lugar, MAC 11 as well as the SIG 47/48?)that of course, limits the possibility of successful cartridge interchange without major changes. The use of smaller cartridges is not limited to MGC alone. Hudson to limited extent, also uses smaller than real size cartridges like in the WZ63 "Scorpion."

Marushin usually tries to have somewhat close to real size cartridges in their models. Which comes in handy as they can make good cartridges that will if loaded correctly, work quite well. I was, when I had my Hudson WZ61 going to try the Marushin Colt "pocket" .25 cartridges in it or perhaps the MGC MAC 11 cartridges as they where close to the right size.

Cartridge to magazine fit is one of the most tricky problems that anyone planning on using another manufacturers cartridge must face. The physical diameter affects the feeding from the magazine. If the cartridge is too big in diameter it will cause either friction, smaller capacity or other different problems.

A smaller diameter might cause the cartridge to pop out of the magazine either during loading or firing. or, they might "stack" incorrectly and stick on the magazines walls. Length as well, will make life for the cartridge interchange experimenter very difficult.

An example of cartridge interchange that works with a few problems is noted on the "318 I" 's site. Shirraya's MGC MAC 11 uses Marushin Beretta M84 (CF) cartridges in it. The Marushin cartridges work surprisingly well. However, they (due to their diameter differences) reduce the magazine capacity quite a bit.

Detonators as well need to be modified by reducing or otherwise changing their length/width/tip etc shapes to fit the donor cartridges specs. Just how the detonators need to be modified is not all that complicated it just involves some study.

Open bolt smg's are the easiest detonators wise, as they just "slam fire" so the length of the detonator only needs to be long enough to smash the cap when the bolt runs forward.

The pistols as well as the closed bolt guns need the detonator to be exactly the right length as the cap must stop just before being smashed on the piston (or cartridge base) and yet place the cap close enough to the piston or base for the hammer blow force to be transmitted to crush the cap. If the cap is too far away, the force of the hammers blow will be lost and the gun won't fire reliably. (if ever)

Also, the cartridge length/width/type affects the chamber as well as the detonator and magazine. As many barrels are predominately made out of plastic, they can be drilled or otherwise modified to fit the given cartridge chosen to fit.

Finally, the chosen cartridges appearance is also important. Even if its just mainly for personal reasons. I.E. MGC .45 CP cartridges in a Lugar or P38 etc.
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MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms
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Cerwyn
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PostSubject: Re: Cartridge Substitition Suggestions   Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:45 pm

Hiya Mark,

I read your post with interest and picked up your mention of the MGC .45ACP carts in Hudson's Grease Gun.
All I did was load them in and pull the trigger.
I haven't touched the detonator pin at all and it seems to work brilliantly "as is"

The only reason I did this was because the forum's general opinion of Hudson carts is poor an as the first modification to make to them is to fit MGC internals, I simply loaded up with the MGC rounds complete.

I have an early all metal Marushin UZI converted to use SIG P220 rds and it's great, but it won't fire Marushin MP40/UZI ones now of course.

Wouldn't universal rounds be so much easier?

Cerwyn
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PostSubject: Re: Cartridge Substitition Suggestions   Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:45 pm

Post by Claymore

Interesting post, using different rounds for some models makes a huge improvement in the performance of the models, P220 in the uzi's for example and P220's to replace the open style paper cap round of mgc mp40's and sterlings which make these models fire so great.
Many of my rounds now fire the p220 and apart from adjusting the size of the det pin the gun has needed no other alterations, this round is such a great round, although its not a large round so its suprising it fits so many models, oh! it fits wa shan 9mm models as well. Trouble is there is only 1 model made originally for this round, the mgc sig p220 and now that mgc have gone out of business my worry is that these rounds will become unavailable which will be a huge problem for me.

It would be interesting to see what rounds other members have used in some models that have made the gun a better firer. I have recently tried mgc 38 super in my ppsh and they work fine + they have a thicker rim so i hope will not get destroyed as quick as the hudson rounds. i have not tried mgc rounds in the hudson thompson so i will have to try them and if anyone can find a round as usable as the p220 please let us all know.
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PostSubject: Re: Cartridge Substitition Suggestions   Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:46 pm

Post by Madmike

Too bad! I have a few guns running on MGC P220 carts too. I canīt understand why MGC P210 and P220 carts are different. I thought until today that both real steel pistols use the same ammo, 9 mm 9 x 19 Parabellum.

Another problem will be .223 carts for the various MGC M16s. So many versions are depending upon these carts, the later HW guns, the ABS guns as well as the early full metal ones converted from paper caps.
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PostSubject: Re: Cartridge Substitition Suggestions   Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:47 pm

Post by Mark



Actually, the real SIG 220 and the 210 do share the same cartridge the 9x19. Its just that MGC very probably designed their SIG 210 back in the 1970's with the smaller sized round. And their SIG 220 was designed in the mid 80's when the trend in modelguns was to be closer to the real firearms. So, they merely designed their models to use the closer to real sized cartridges.

The older models like the Lugar and the SIG 210 where left as is due to the cost factors involved in the re-tooling of the molds/magazines/cartridge machining etc.

The late model, CP/PFC etc. MGC,Marushin,Tanaka and others that made M16's, Ruger's etc. in 5.56x45 where at least consistent and all retained the same basic cartridge dimensions. Their internal piston as well as the cartridge case separation point changes from manufacturer to manufacturer but, they are for the most part, interchangeable.
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MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms
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