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 Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins

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Cerwyn
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PostSubject: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:58 pm

If, like me, many of you have wondered how our Japanese friends are achieving such impressive muzzle flash effects like this,





Part of the answer seems to WC-PB cartridge Pistons and Hollow Detonator Pins.





Hopefully one of our Japanese members can translate the packaging above. There's a possibility that 5mm caps are intended to be used with these? Clarification is reqd please? 







Detonator Pin profiles are different to allow them to pass through hole sizes in cartridge tops depending on the cartridge manufacturer. Since MGC's closure a number of small Custom shops have started making cartridges.



GM-7 system:-





Custom 9mm system





It seems to be that the WC-PC system relies on a close fit between the Hollow Det. Pin and the bored out upper part of the Piston to allow as much Flame/Flash and Noise to vent out







The bored out piston is visible here





Comparing a standard MGC piston and the WC-PB, it's clear the igniter pin is significantly shorter in the WC-PB's case




One Japanese blog reports that a standard 7mm MG cap will not allow the pin to strike the charge, as shown here





the solution is to trim the caps' edges down to create enough clearance




More research needs to be to get all the answers but at least we now know that the Det.Pins and Cartridge Pistons need swapping over to the WC-PB type.


Some Flash / Prop or Magnesium powder is more than likely added to create such a long and bright flame effect.


I'll update when I find out some more  Very Happy

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Last edited by Cerwyn on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:37 pm; edited 8 times in total (Reason for editing : Images updated to Servimg)
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claymore
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PostSubject: Re: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:38 pm

Well done mate and where the hell did you get this info and pics? This explains a lot especially how they get so much flash out of mp40's etc. Never ever seen these on yahoo or any other site though.
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PostSubject: Re: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:21 pm

What a great info you got us!

It's refreshing to see people pick up modelgun development and keeping hobby alive!
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Cerwyn
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PostSubject: Re: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:06 am

There are several Japanese blogs online that are Modelgun related. I've found them by following up on Japanese enthusiasts that post videos on Youtube.
With any luck, shazhib may be able to find us some WC-PB Pistons and suitable Det.Pins. It's very likely we could have Det.Pins made here once we have a Piston to determine inner and outer diameters.


Next step will be coming up with a good Flash Powder !

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claymore
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PostSubject: Re: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:49 am

You would think that we could get proper flash powder over here no problem with our heritage in theatre and all the special effects they do for films over here, but to be honest i dont even know what we would use apart from magnesium, do we know what they use in japan? What about flour! sounds stupid i know and i am joking but have you seen what happens when you set light to a fine mist of it, practically explodes!! so maybe not a good choice for plastic guns.
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PostSubject: Re: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:11 am

claymore wrote:
You would think that we could get proper flash powder over here no problem with our heritage in theatre and all the special effects they do for films over here, but to be honest i dont even know what we would use apart from magnesium, do we know what they use in japan? What about flour! sounds stupid i know and i am joking but have you seen what happens when you set light to a fine mist of it, practically explodes!! so maybe not a good choice for plastic guns.

Magnesium powder does work for certain, but not always in my experience. The shorter the barrel the better results. Pistols are perfect for Mg, but I've yet to see any Flash from an MP40 or Stirling barrel.
Those Japanese I've asked are VERY secretive about what they use unfortunately. One did tell me that he uses a mix including Strontium Nitrate which is commonly found in Distress Flares carried in all Japanese cars. It produces a Red flame when set alight.
An advantage of Strontium Nitrate is that it has good oxidising properties. Magnesium needs the extra oxygen to burn hot enough so it's still a bright flame or flash as it exits the muzzle.
The serious concerns are that any Powder mix contained within a sealed cartridge could expand so fast when lit that it does explode ... something NOT to be taken lightly as serious injury and broken modelguns could be the result.
Red Flash powder is available freely on ebay over here.


I would like to try these WC-PB pistons with a suitable Det.Pin in an SMG like MP40 or Stirling. Using Mg powder initially. It's vital that the Mg powder stays dry and in fine powder state if it's to burn quick enough to produce Flash. If it gets contaminated with oils or grease it won't light up.   

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pedal2metal
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PostSubject: Re: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:00 pm

Very interesting following this thread, and the Japanese and their technology always impresses the hell out out of me. When you watch action movies made  in the last decade or so the flash flame effects do seem to be getting larger and larger.

Cerwyn wrote:
claymore wrote:
You would think that we could get proper flash powder over here no problem with our heritage in theatre and all the special effects they do for films over here, but to be honest i dont even know what we would use apart from magnesium, do we know what they use in japan? What about flour! sounds stupid i know and i am joking but have you seen what happens when you set light to a fine mist of it, practically explodes!! so maybe not a good choice for plastic guns.

Magnesium powder does work for certain, but not always in my experience. The shorter the barrel the better results. Pistols are perfect for Mg, but I've yet to see any Flash from an MP40 or Stirling barrel.
Those Japanese I've asked are VERY secretive about what they use unfortunately. One did tell me that he uses a mix including Strontium Nitrate which is commonly found in Distress Flares carried in all Japanese cars. It produces a Red flame when set alight.
An advantage of Strontium Nitrate is that it has good oxidising properties. Magnesium needs the extra oxygen to burn hot enough so it's still a bright flame or flash as it exits the muzzle.
The serious concerns are that any Powder mix contained within a sealed cartridge could expand so fast when lit that it does explode ... something NOT to be taken lightly as serious injury and broken modelguns could be the result.
Red Flash powder is available freely on ebay over here.


I would like to try these WC-PB pistons with a suitable Det.Pin in an SMG like MP40 or Stirling. Using Mg powder initially. It's vital that the Mg powder stays dry and in fine powder state if it's to burn quick enough to produce Flash. If it gets contaminated with oils or grease it won't light up.   
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PostSubject: Re: Muzzle Flash - WC-PB Piston & Hollow Det.Pins    Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:09 pm


https://youtu.be/rKnI-ZNNL2A

I am quite impressed with the star like muzzleflashes from the m4 in full auto in this video. If I could buy one that fires like that I'd go for it no matter what they cost. This is exactly the effect I have been waiting for all those years.
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