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PostSubject: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:38 am

Post by bobbybobtroop

I've been looking for MGC caps for a reasonable price. I can find the Marushin caps on the tokyo central hobby site and te WWII armory site for about $10. However I have not been able to find MGC caps for a reasonable price.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:39 am

Post by Madmike

I'd recommend you ask forum members Francky or Shazhib, both are in Japan and can get you the caps for a good price.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:39 am

Post by shazhib

$10 per pack(100 shots)?
That's a rippo, ripper, rippest!
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:40 am

shazhib wrote:
$10 per pack(100 shots)?
That's a rippo, ripper, rippest!

Rip Off too...

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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:41 am

Post by Jim

Still this is $3.00 cheaper than Hong Kong (when they were unregulated back in the early 90s)...
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:42 am

Post by Madmike

Here in Europe we are ripped off too! The only shop I know charges EUR 10,00, which is over 14 USD ... Glad there are some guys in Japan helping out ...
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:43 am

Post by romagnus

bobbybobtroop wrote:
've been looking for MGC caps for a reasonable price. I can find the Marushin caps on the tokyo central hobby site and te WWII armory site for about $10. However I have not been able to find MGC caps for a reasonable price.

Francky has them for less than $5 a box. I have used them and they are very good.
http://franckys-modelgun.com/
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:44 am

Post by bobbybobtroop

Hey hey

I found som caps at KB Toys 320 shots of round revolver type caps fr $2 a pack. I had to douple cap my m1921 cartrages but it worked very well. It does not have the sparks the spatking caps have which is a big blus and the reason I was looking for MGC caps in particular. I made A video of the caps and it can be seen on you tube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk1oGFsYL60 I do not know why you cannot search for the video, you just have to use this URL. Notice the lack of sparks. very important if you have a gun with a blocked muzzle like the newer m1921s.

Not sure if this type of cap is safe for the gun but I've ad mor problems so far and they look great.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:44 am

Those caps seem to work just fine judging by that video don't they?
I couldn't get sound on your vid' though, do you get a decent "bang" and plenty of smoke with 'em?

The only toy gun caps I've seen are 5mm dia, are the ones you have 7mm then?

Could you spare the time to take a photo or two of how you load your cartridges up with double caps please?

Have you looked at Francky's site or contacted shazhib about MG caps?

$4.20 per 100, buy them 1000 at a time and fire away!

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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:45 am

Post by ricks

"American" (i.e. imporetd from Asia) cap guns use 5mm caps, like those sold almost everywhere. FWIW the ubiquitous "dollar stores" sell the same 5mm caps for $1.00 USD!
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:46 am

I've only seen 5mm caps too so I'm curious how bobby loads up his .45ACP cartridges with 2 of them?
The video sure hows 'em working ok...

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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:47 am

Post by ricks

Hey, Cerwyn!
I'd like to know the mechanics, too...
Also, I wonder if black powder caps might work? If the dimensions & power are right they might produce a nice flash.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am

Post by bobbybobtroop

They are 5 mm caps. I thought that might be a problem as the thompson uses a 7mm cap. But as you can see, it works just fine. I had to cut them each from a ring of 8 caps. I'll have to get a photo to show you how I arrange them. The bang is about the same as marushin caps but has no flash at all which is very desirable for me. Above all, they're cheap.

I 'm having trouble with a photo. but it's actually quite simple to explain. One 5 mm cap is positioned just like any other and rests on the botom of the cartrige when it is open. it rattles around in there as it is small and you have to make sure the powder is face up but it's not to tricky. the other I place on the piston head and then slide the piston in. the result is 2 5mm caps powder side up directly under the piston.

Think of it as placing two caps in just like you always do with one but stacked on top of eachother. I know it's natural to think the plastic ridges will get in the way but they dont. the ridges just get smashed and the powder goes bang. I'm paying $2 for 160 pfc shots or 320 individual caps. It's a great deal. I'm actually not sure why paper caps would not do just as well. maybe it's the cplastic ring around these 5mm caps that keeps it centered on the piston? who knows. But I'm likely to experiment in the future with paper caps too.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:49 am

Post by bobbybobtroop

wow, I saw all those typing errors in my first post about the round caps from KB Toys It would be a real shame to give the wrong impression of how effective the technique is. Just to clear up any confusion. I was trying to say I have not had any more problems with these caps. They look and work great!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing but good things to report about this method. It's good good good good good. But I cannot say anything as far as how safe it is for my gun.

Someone also asked about smoke. There is much less smoke than what I have seen of MGC caps in videos though there is still smoke present(just check out the other thompson video on you tube which has an unblocked muzzel and must be using MGC caps, you'll notice much much more smoke). However the lack of massive amounts of smoke is also a plus for me as I see very little smoke when I fire real weapons when compared to the MGC caps. and when used with a blocked muzzeled weapon like the MGC thompson the smoke pouring out the chamber gets a bit rediculous.

I'm planning to animate muzzle flashes in an upcomming movie and have had a lot of success with the technique. Now with cheap less sparky and less smokey caps, I think Ican really get the effect I was looking for. I'm also interested in experimenting with magnesium powder in open barreled smgs and pistols for muzzle flash.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:50 am

I haven't tried it yet but I guess you may need to push the piston down into the cartridge body to hold both caps fast?

Normally you'd push a 7mm cap right down to the base then place the piston in leaving it flush with the top of the threads.

I tried double capping .45acp rounds a long time back using a 7mm cap with a 5mm one sitting inside it. I'd pushed them both down to the base but by placing the piston flush with the top the 5mm cap would fall over inside the cartridge... Missfires aplenty!

Gently pushing the piston in further till it just touched the caps cured that but 2 MGC or Marushin caps were just too powerful and not really needed.
Slightly louder bang maybe, twice the smoke ! but the gun cycled too fast and would jam up.

Bobby's method using low powered caps is definately worth a try. I'd look out for marks on top of the piston though, and keep a close eye on the Detonator Pin.

There's a limited amount of space inside the cartridge. When the bolt drives the cartridge into the chamber the Det. pin pushes the piston into the caps, so the cap(s) ignite by being struck inbetween the Det Pin and the piston.

If the plastic rims of the caps crush completely then fine, but if not, despite the fact they both ignite, could the Piston and Det Pin be damaged by being struck too hard?

There was a discussion on here some time ago where somebody had noticed their pistons were deforming. They were being crushed and their diameter was increasing. I can't remember the exact cause now but it shows you how much force is exerted within these metal models.

Hey Ricks, I don't think black powder is a good idea mate... it might not even be legal and could even blow your hands off...
I'm sure somebody with more knowledge than I have with black powder can tell you for sure though

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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:51 am

Post by GZ22

Black powder produces way more gas than cap composition by weight. You would need to use a very small amount of it so as not to put yourself in danger of the expanding gases rupturing the gun and creating shrapnel. Additionally, it is almost impossible to initiate it by impact unless that impact creates a hot spot in the material. The formulation would need to be sensitised to make it susceptible to ignition by impact. The downside of doing that is that it makes it much more unstable to use and transport that regular black powder. One gram of black powder gives you 718 calories of heat, 270 cubic centimeters of gas, and about half of a gram of residue. Upon ignition the sulphur burns, producing hydrogen sulphide, and the saltpetre decomposes, releasing free oxygen molecules, sustaining combustion, and combining with the carbon of the charcoal to form carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. Heat energy is released as the gas expands. Sulphur will vaporize at 832.28 F. The principal gases formed are carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen. About one third of the gas created is nitrogen. The solid products are potassium carbonate, potassium sulphate, and potassium mono- and higher sulphides, and carbon. The white smoke and fouling of black powder comprise the solids that are produced upon combustion. Black powder residue consists of potassium carbonate, potassium sulphate, potassium sulphide, potassium thiosulphate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon, and sulphur. All the potassium compounds are salts, considered corrosive. The sulphides in the emissions create the 'rotten egg' smell that we all know from spent fireworks.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:51 am

GZ22 wrote:
Black powder produces way more gas than cap composition by weight. You would need to use a very small amount of it so as not to put yourself in danger of the expanding gases rupturing the gun and creating shrapnel. Additionally, it is almost impossible to initiate it by impact unless that impact creates a hot spot in the material. The formulation would need to be sensitised to make it susceptible to ignition by impact. The downside of doing that is that it makes it much more unstable to use and transport that regular black powder. One gram of black powder gives you 718 calories of heat, 270 cubic centimeters of gas, and about half of a gram of residue. Upon ignition the sulphur burns, producing hydrogen sulphide, and the saltpetre decomposes, releasing free oxygen molecules, sustaining combustion, and combining with the carbon of the charcoal to form carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. Heat energy is released as the gas expands. Sulphur will vaporize at 832.28 F. The principal gases formed are carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen. About one third of the gas created is nitrogen. The solid products are potassium carbonate, potassium sulphate, and potassium mono- and higher sulphides, and carbon. The white smoke and fouling of black powder comprise the solids that are produced upon combustion. Black powder residue consists of potassium carbonate, potassium sulphate, potassium sulphide, potassium thiosulphate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon, and sulphur. All the potassium compounds are salts, considered corrosive. The sulphides in the emissions create the 'rotten egg' smell that we all know from spent fireworks.
And I only thought it went "Bang"... Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:52 am

Post by ricks

I guess I wasn't very clear (Gee, that never happened before )...
I was thinking of the percussion caps that are used in cap-and-ball black powder guns. They function like the primer for the charge, but are actually independent of the powder charge. They look like the caps, but are metal vs. the plastic used in modelgun caps.

For example...
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=119241&t=11082005
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:53 am

Post by bobbybobtroop

cerwyn wrote:
I haven't tried it yet but I guess you may need to push the piston down into the cartridge body to hold both caps fast?

you'r right, the piston must be pushed all the way in to detonate both caps. The plastic rims are also crushed very badly. I just compared the plastic rims of marushin 7mm caps to te plastic rims of my KB Toys super bang ring caps. The rims on the 7mm marushin are far more rigid than the super bang. The super bangs are vary maliable. I'd find it hard to believe the plastic rims of these super bang toy caps would damage anything. However I do now notice what damage the marushin rims could cause if double capped. Their rims ar far thicker mor ridgid ad take up a lot more physical space. That being said, I think the MGC all zink thompson is much more durable than the average model gun.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:54 am

Post by GZ22

Ah yes I see what you mean ricks. I don't think that the pressures those black powder caps generate could be tolerated by a modelgun though.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:55 am

[quote="bobbybobtroop"]
cerwyn wrote:
I haven't tried it yet but I guess you may need to push the piston down into the cartridge body to hold both caps fast?
bobbybobtroop wrote:
That being said, I think the MGC all zink thompson is much more durable than the average model gun.
Don't you believe it Bob'. I'll take some photos of an MGC Thompson Zinc Bolt to show you how deformed and mangled it gets in a relatively short time.
If you take a look at the one I stripped out of my UZI first...

Although this doesn't look too bad at first glance, it's enough to cause cartridges to fall out of the extractor's grip and drop off early during extraction causing jams.

Also the Detonator Pin can in certain instances get knocked out of line
Another thing I realised was that during automatic firing the bolt face strikes the magazine body after the last round has been fired. The bolt doesn't travel all the way forwards does it?
There were deep indendations in the bolt face that match the mag exactly.
It's a good idea to load the first cartridge you put into the mag with a dead cap.
That way the gun will strip the round out the mag and into the chamber but as it won't fire and blowback the bolt stays forwards and won't clout the mag body.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:57 am

bobbybobtroop wrote:
That being said, I think the MGC all zink thompson is much more durable than the average model gun.
Don't you believe it Bob'. I've taken some photos of MGC Thompson Zinc Bolts to show you how deformed and mangled they can get in a relatively short time.
First off then, here's a photo of a well used and a new Zinc Bolt Face...

As you can see here the rim of the recess has been well and truly battered over...
Here's another Angle...

Damage like this is caused through wear and tear, every time the bolt moves forwards it hits the cartridge stripping it from the magazine, it then pushes the cartridge up into the chamber, slams it home to centre it in the Bolt Face Recess, Clip the Extractor Claw over the Rim and Fire it...
Any interferance during this process be it a miss feed, jam, whatever, is likely to leave its' mark on the soft Zinc.
This is how a cartridge is held secure in a New Bolt...

and...

Here's the same round in a worn out Bolt...

and again...

It's little wonder my Thompson wouldn't fire properly really is it looking at these!
The gun wouldn't extract and eject fired cartridges. Simple reason was the Cartridge would drop out of the Bolt before hitting the ejector, then dropping into the Breech and jamming the next attempt at loading.
Another thing I realised was that during automatic firing the bolt face strikes the magazine body after the last round has been fired. The bolt doesn't travel all the way forwards does it?
There were deep indendations in the bolt face that match the mag exactly.
It's a good idea to load the first cartridge you put into the mag with a dead cap.
That way the gun will strip the round out the mag and into the chamber but as it won't fire and blowback the bolt stays forwards and won't clout the mag body.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:58 am

Post by bobbybobtroop



this dmage to the bolt, was it caused by double capping? If so, what type of caps?

Also, I was not suggesting the thompson bolt was indestructable, I was merley stating the thompson seems o be able to take more abuse period than other model guns of which i have read reviews. If your point is tht a hompson is just as fragile as a abs greas gun, I'd have a hard time getting my mind wrapped around it.

In any event, those were great pics and an outstanding explanation.
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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:59 am

Hi Bob',

This particular bolt was removed from my first MGC Thompson which I'd bought as a pre-owned one from a dealer.
Being very new to the modelgun hobby then I didn't think to check the overall condition of each component and as the gun fired ok initially thought all was well.
Didn't take long before problems started though.

I did try double capping once, but by inserting a 5mm cap into a 7mm one. The 5 sits almost perfectly inside the 7 (take a look at the Marushin 5.56mm Loading Guide) but as the gains didn't really warrant the extra cost of two caps I didn't bother afterwards.

I guess the point I was tryng to make is that the Zinc bolt is (as you say too ) far from indestructable, even normal use will chew it up as badly as those photos show.
My original UZI bolt has had normal use and that was worn out and had to be replaced.

By putting 2 x 5mm caps in the cartridge I was just concerned that as the Inner Piston could Bottom Out in the cartridge sooner than it's designed too it might put unwanted stress on the Bolt Face, The Detonator Pin, and the Inner Piston also.

I wasn't trying to dismiss your suggestion of using the inexpensive 5mm caps, far from it, any way of saving cash and getting more Bangs per Buck is fine by me (!).

I just wanted you to be aware that normal use will wear out soft metal parts pretty quickly. Even simple things like Double capping can put enough extra stress to accelerate wear and cause damage

Strangely enough, the most durable model gun I own is my all ABS Marushin MP40! Considering how "soft" the abs bolt and chamber etc are they're lasting very, very well and show little (if any) signs of wear.

I'd expected too that zinc metal would be far more durable but the best material has to be steel. *Ace's steel Thompson and UZI bolts have transformed my models, no signs of wear on them !

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PostSubject: Re: Affordable Caps   Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:00 am

Post by Mark

Way back in the beginning before i started my modelguns website and this forum, i tried many different substitutes for the proper Japanese 5 and 7mm caps as they where not available here in the U.S.
I never had much more than a limited success with all of the available caps that i tried to use up to that point. Most of the available caps that looked close where little(4.5mm) red plastic caps that where commonly found at local grocery stores and toy shops. They where usually on either strips or on round disk like arrangement for revolvers.

I also tried the black powder ignition caps (for revolvers) and primers (both small and large) none of these worked.

What i learned, is that there is really no good substitute that is commonly available here in the U.S. or possibly in the UK or Europe that works as well as the original Japanese made caps. Also, the use of double caps not only accelerate wear on components in the modelgun itself, they also induce stress on the cartridges by over pressuring them. Over pressuring the cartridges causes them to expand and "work harden" them as well which shortens the life of these expensive and sometimes hard to find cartridges. Lastly, the over pressured cartridges move faster and when they come in contact with the hard ejector they can and often do become damaged faster that the cartridge that has only one cap..
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