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PostSubject: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:39 pm

Post by Mark

Replica guns to be banned

Alan Travis, home affairs editor
Monday June 6, 2005
The Guardian

The government is to announce this week that it will press ahead with a ban on the manufacture, import and sale of "realistic" replica and imitation guns a year after the Home Office said a blanket ban was unworkable and impractical.
The ban will not be as wide-ranging as gun control campaigners had been pressing for but it will be accompanied by a measure making it illegal for anybody under the age of 18 to buy any kind of imitation or replica firearm.

The violent crime reduction bill, to be published on Wednesday, will also include an aggravated offence of using children or otherwise innocent parties to hide or carry guns or knives.
Ministers appeared to rule out a ban on imitation weapons a year ago because of the difficulty of coming up with a precise legal definition of a replica. But senior civil servants have managed to circumvent the problem to ensure that the crackdown does not include toy guns and water pistols in a wholesale blanket ban.

The bill will make clear that the ban on the sale of replicas only covers imitation guns that "any reasonable person could mistake for a firearm".

The ban will also be crafted to ensure it applies to sales over the internet and by mail order.

Ministers have included a number of exemptions in the legislation including the "theatrical use of imitation firearms". They have heard representations from television and film companies who feared the ban could hit the production of police and crime dramas.

The ban is being introduced after the latest gun crime figures showed that the use of imitation weapons rose by 66% in the last year and is fuelling a 10% increase in all gun crime. Ministers are particularly worried about BB or ball-bearing guns that fire plastic pellets.

At the same time the use of real handguns fell by 13% in the last year.

At present, it is illegal to carry an imitation weapon or an air gun in a public place without a reasonable excuse and to sell replica weapons that can be converted into firing live ammunition.

It is expected that this week's legislation will increase the sentences for carrying replica guns and introduce tougher standards on manufacturers to ensure that replica weapons cannot be converted to fire live ammunition. The bill will also raise the age limit for buying knives to 18 and tighten the law on air guns.

Headteachers will also be given the legal right to search pupils for knives or guns and "at-risk" pubs and clubs will be required to search for them.

The legislation will also implement the government's crackdown on drink-related violence.

As I noted in the general modelgun forum, this new Home Office attempt at "crime control" will affect all of you in Britain that collect any modelguns or so it seems, deactivated guns too as they fall under replicas...What is happening in your country????
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:40 pm

Post by Claymore

Where is this country going to, its going to the dogs mate. The governments reaction to curb anthing illegal is to hit the innocent which then makes it look like they are tackling the problem.

This one has a lot of people worried and we are trying to find out more, but from the info have have had it is not time to panic just yet the people selling airsoft and modelguns (as airsoft would come under this as well) do not believe this legislation is going to come into effect aprt from raising the age limit to 18yrs.

We will have to wait and see but at this time i think we are still OK. If more comes through i will of course post on this forum. Maybe rizzo or R22master might know more as they have a lot to do with arnie who seems to be in the know.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:40 pm

Post by rizzo

That article contains some major contradictions and is overall very ambiguous.

Tomorow the public will be informed officially as to what legilsation the government is going to try and pass.

In some parts of the article it suggests a complete ban on all replicas, but in other parts only a ban on the sale of replicas to under 18's.

As I said, wait and see : > Although i still think it unlikely that the government will try a blanket ban...
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:41 pm

Post by Mark

This is a typical reaction by political hacks in power and by their friends on the anti-gun sidelines..What their idea is, is to "cut off" any interest in guns in young people not to stop some nefarious criminal..It's the same tactic that they are trying to do here in the U.S. if you can stop interest in guns at an early age then they surmise,that later in life you won't have any interest in guns..
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:42 pm

Post by Mark

Remember all legislation dealing with firearms real or replica, is incremental, a little here, a little there until they are all in the museum or have been melted down "for the good of society"
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:43 pm

Post by rizzo

Response to the article from Arnie, owner of Arniesairsoft.co.uk-
Quote :
I've just had a quick chat with a friend who has already spoken to the author of the article in the Guardian and the Home Office PR/press department.
The article in the Guardian is speculation at this point, nothing more. There are no other articles on the matter from any respected news sources (such as the Beeb).
Remember that the Guardian like most papers is somewhat political in nature and may not be printing material simply for the good of the people.
The article is purely speculation at this point, and is reportedly based on information in the Queens speech, with the proposal only being at a draft stage. The bill as written is highly unlikely to be passed as is and even when passed in some format would have to be phased in over a matter of years.
Any form of ban of anything that "looked like a firearm" would in effect cease the trading of many large businesses (the sum involved associated simply with Airsoft goes into the millions), from the retailer perspective through to training groups, skirmish sites, the movie and theatre industry and every place where something looks like a firearm. Any potential legislation will receive a very strong rejection from thoses groups simply because it would destroy people's businesses, and as such any confrontation would be much stronger than that of a niche community such as Airsoft.
The groups mentioned would almost certainly take legal action through the EU courts to cease any legislation that would unfairly curtail their business, after all removing plastic firearm look-a-likes in the form of a blanket ban does nothing for public safety, one only has to look at the mass hysteria involved when a member of the public was shot and killed over a chair leg.
In all honesty any hysteria about such a matter online achieves nothing unless there are clear aims to be met and solutions to be found. A representative group, even one with a signature from every player and collector in the country, will in all honesty have zero weight against the political bodies that would push a ban forward (namely the various anti-gun groups).
An avenue that might be worth taking would be to seek some form of support from the firearms bodies in the UK, however they are likely to be highly unsupportive of Airsoft because of the simulated combat aspect.
In my own opinion the best thing players can do is to carry on in a professional and sensible manner and to encourage their local sites and retailers to carry on in the same fashion.
End result? My personal view is that the best thing players can do is buckle up, play safe and be aware of any possible problems that might come up. If there is going to be an opposition to any papers put forward in the commons it should really be backed by those that stand to loose money (not a pastime) over it. Money and pending lawsuits speak louder than thousands of voices could; sad but true.
Best thing a UK player can do IMHO? Support your local retailers and sites. Get your local MP (or their family, or kids) involved and knowledgeable about your local site now, send out invites asking them down for a game. Don't do it because there's a sudden need to, rather do it because for Airsoft to continue there need to be more educated people in parliment who don't just hear the word "gun", jump and say 'aye'.
Education and the realisation that real crime needs to be tackled by effective means, not legislation that simply bans whatever tools are commonly available to those criminals, be it baseball bats, knives, bananas, lead pipes or "something that looks like a gun".
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:44 pm

Post by Claymore

Just watched the new's and i have to say things dont look good, i could write reams on the way the government and high ranking police officers are desparte to take any sort of image of a gun away from us but you will all have heard it before.

Who exactly are they going to blame when the gun crime continues, they are running out of options and might actually have to deal with the real problem soon instead of hitting the innocent easy option.

Nothing is as yet set in stone but we know that this government will ignore the normal 2yrs it takes to pass any other bill that would be of actual benifit to the british and steamroller this through and of course refuse to pay compensation to any of us. It amazes me that in a country that is apparently so strong on human rights, fair play and against persecution of any kind that we gun enthusiasts can be persecuted so easily and acceptabley.

Something is going to happen and not for the better but i am trying not to panic just yet as this is still at proposal stage but the government and the british people as a whole do not like or understand why we like firearms of any type and so still believe the gun is the problem not the person behind it.

Fingers crossed that this forum will still have a contribution from us Brits in the future, if not, well America here i come.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:44 pm

Post by MadMike

I am very concerned about the situation and I am watching this topic with great interest. A total ban in the United Kingdom would mean the death of the modelgun hobby in Europe I am sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:45 pm

Post by Mark

Quote :
Fingers crossed that this forum will still have a contribution from us Brits in the future, if not, well America here i come.

Well claymore, hopefully it won't get to that point that you have to leave your country to continue to enjoy your hobby!! Although, it would be cool to have you and all of the gun-owners from the world here in the U.S. then, let the anti-gunners try to take them then!
Quote :
Who exactly are they going to blame when the gun crime continues, they are running out of options and might actually have to deal with the real problem soon instead of hitting the innocent easy option.
I am sure that the slick politicians will come-up with some convenient way to blame someone..In the U.S. they have been attempting the same sad, anti-gun strategy for years saying that we are the cause of violent crime etc.
These anti-gun dreamers are easily fooled by these politicians and their promises of a gun-free utopia...But no one has told them just how to pay for it and none of them can quite understand just what rights they have to give-up for their utopia to take shape.
Compensation for your personal property is the last thing they have in mind for you besides, if they do find it in their small hearts to compensate you, remember, they are using YOUR TAX MONEY to pay you!!!
Governments rarely care about anything except money and power and they will blame and crush anyone in the way of their goals.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:46 pm

Post by rizzo

From the front page of Arnies Airsoft-
Quote :
Well what a day this has been.. I don't think my phone stopped ringing all day. I've just had an email from Tom, (Director of mySociety, the group that run WriteToThem.com), who noticed the sudden influx of people using their systems linked in from here, which can only be a good thing. First I'd like to point everyone's attention to their guideline page, which says in brief don't spam, be considerate, don't use pre-typed messages, use your own postcode, and please don't use the system if you're not from the UK.
Tom thought I might be interested to know that they are launching a new service on Monday, called www.pledgebank.com, specifically designed to get people to work together to do things they otherwise wouldn't or couldn't achieve. If we create a pledge on there before monday the cause will, according to them, likely benefit from media coverage when they launch (as will all the other pledges on the site). Please post ideas for a pledge on the forums here, and the most sensible pledge will be created tomorrow to see what kind of interest it can dig up
The huge increase in traffic on the site today both on the news page and in the forums was immense and goes to show that there's a lot more Airsofters and enthusiasts that lurk in the background who have been stirred by the proposed VCR Bill today. We're not talking a small jump here either, we're talking a leap to a record of over 21,000 individuals and 100,000 page views in one single day. There have been some good responses over on the BBC "Have Your Say": VCR Bill page too.
I am limited in what I can do from the perspective of a website, however the more people that are aware of this bill, the problems it will cause in the firearms world and elsewhere, the more people there are who can stand up, contact their local MP and voice their objections to the bill. For a halt to be placed on the bill would be truly amazing given the support it currently sports, however perhaps your efforts may produce a more favorable rewrite on the terms that are to be placed in the bill. Here's the latest from the Cybershooters.org mailing list:
You can read the Bill [here]. The "Violent Crime Reduction" Bill contains the following provisions: - Introduces an offence of "minding" a firearm; - Increases the age limit for possession, acquisition, etc. of an airgun to 18;
- Introduces an offence of firing an air weapon beyond premises;
- Restricts the sale and purchase of primers and anything containing a primer which is not ammunition (which sounds as though it includes blanks) to certificate holders, RFDs, etc.;
- Restricts the sale and purchase of reloading presses to people who hold a certificate, RFDs, etc.;
- Prohibits the sale, import, manufacture of "realistic imitation firearms";
- Gives the Secretary of State the power to regulate the design of imitation firearms;
- Introduces an age limit of 18 on the sale or acquisition of an imitation firearm;
- Increases a wide range of penalties in relation to firearm offences.
By far the worst bit (of many bad bits) of this legislation is the prohibition on "realistic imitation firearms". Realistic is defined as:
"In this section "realistic imitation firearm" means an imitation firearm whose appearance is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from-
(a) a firearm of an existing make or model; or
(b) a firearm falling within a description that applies to an existing category of firearms which, even though they include firearms of different makes or models or both, all have the same or a similar appearance."
"Imitation firearm" is defined in the Firearms Act 1968 (and this Bill uses this definition) as: "any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm... whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile" In other words, this prohibition would catch a wide variety of stuff, airsoft guns, blank-firers, probably deacs, model guns, etc.
It will be possible (subject to whatever the Secretary of State specifies as an acceptable design) to still make airsofts, e.g. by making them out of brightly coloured plastic or uprating the power level so they become air weapons, but I can't see realistically how blank-firers can survive if you do need a certificate to acquire blanks and deacs would have to be heavily modified to not look "realistic". Ditto for model guns and other imitations.
So many people own guns in these categories that it must be well into the hundreds of thousands of people if not millions. Don't hang about - write a letter to your MP as soon as you can and make an appointment to see them. Points to make are the unenforceability of the legislation (how can you stop people selling imitations they already own?); the scale of the impact on the population (huge numbers of people will be affected, probably with little warning and without compensation); the absurdity of increasing the age limit on air guns when it was only increased two years ago; the fact that an endless series of gun laws have been followed by higher levels of armed crime; and the scale of the impact on the economy (a LOT of gun dealers will be forced out of business). DO IT NOW!!! Steve, (Cybershooters.org)
And to end things I thought I'd add in a quote sent in by Nigel that seems somewhat apt:
By a free country, I mean a country where people are allowed, As long as they do not hurt their neighbours, To do as they like. I do not mean a country where six men may make five men do exactly as they like. Lord Salisbury (1830 - 1903)
I'll give you the link to the pledge when it has been decided Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:46 pm

Post by Claymore

It's a nightmare over here at the moment, there is panic, frustration and total confusion, no one knows what the implecations are, or how long it will take to pass this bill, some say month's and others point out that it will have to go through the house of lords first.
Simply know one know's but everyone expects the worst. I have written to my MP, the bbc and am trying to think of anything else that will help. The government and the police will push this through (my wife is a police officer so i know that the average police person is against this bill) and they will ignore any rational argument from us. Look at hunting (fox) like it or loathe it there were powerfull people in the hunting lobby and they still did not succeed.

There are bad times ahead and i am afraid that any news or articles from UK boys will not be good for a while. I did fire several guns today but to be honest it was hard to enjoy firing them with this dark cloud over our head, i really thougfht that after the last ban (which has been proved to be a complete waste of time) things could not get worse.

Be thankfull Mark that you live in the US, i know the anti gun lobby have tried over there but at least it seems the government listens to the majority of people over there rather than the minority over here. It really seems to me that the UK gets more and nore restricted by the month, you talk about the control russia had over its people, believe me we are not far from it.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:47 pm

Post by Mark

Well claymore, i had a feeling a few months ago that this type of legislation would be considered by your government as i had heard that the government was looking into ways to ban replica firearms.

And I kept on hearing through the fireams news sources that i have, that the British newspapers have been constantly harping about the dangers that the replica guns have in store for British society..

Usually when the newspapers start printing nonsense like that they have been talking directly to government sources..

I Hate talking about other countrys politics as there are so many differences between our countrys etc..But, I liken todays British gunowners excaping Britian as ships excaping a sinking rat..Don't get me wrong Britain is a great country! However, your government is refusing to listen to you now.

As far as the implications of this bill are concerned, the days of your hobby and guns(real,deactivated,airsoft,airguns,pointed sticks,fingers,carved soap,drawings of guns,G.I. Joe toys,cardboard and modelguns) remaining in Britain are numbered....Unless, Tony Blair and all of the rest of the politicians are out of work and with out their insulation that high office jobs in the government brings..

If you think that things are bad now just wait for a few more years!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:47 pm

Post by rizzo

Things are looking a little less gloomy. Lots of people have received replies from MPs they have written to, and many are in accordance that the bill is unfair as it stands; removing legitimate replica owners of their hobby/work.

May i suggest everyone who wants to help browse www.arniesairsoft.co.uk and www.airsoftcommunity.co.uk. The airsoft shops are lobbying for changes too, all is not lost
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:48 pm

Post by Mark

Well rizzo, that sounds a little better...However, politicians will be politicians and the only things that stops politicians bad intentions dead in their tracks, is either force or JOB LOSSES..

They will continue to push for more and more gun control as time goes on and you can write millions of letters, that they will burn to heat the parliment, but you show them that thousands of JOBS are at stake they will listen as that means the loss of their tax revenue...And nothing hurts politicians like the loss of tax money.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:49 pm

Post by garyforce

hey guys !

its taken me a while to track this down ..... but ive found the bill thats going to be causing us some grief !

you can find it at

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/010/06010.i-v.html

but here are the highlights that will afect us in the sunny UK !

All the best lads !

Gary

Imitation firearms
30 Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;
(b) he modifies a firearm or an imitation firearm so that it becomes a
realistic imitation firearm;
(c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or
(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to
be brought into Great Britain.

(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations—
(a) provide for exceptions and exemptions from the offence under
subsection (1); and
(b) provide for it to be a defence in proceedings for such an offence to show
the matters specified or described in the regulations.

(3) Regulations under subsection (2) may—
(a) frame any exception, exemption or defence by reference to an approval
or consent given in accordance with the regulations;
(b) provide for approvals and consents to be given in relation to particular
cases or in relation to such descriptions of case as may be specified or
described in the regulations; and
(c) confer the function of giving approvals or consents on such persons
specified or described in the regulations as the Secretary of State thinks
fit.

(4) The power of the Secretary of State to make regulations under subsection (2)
shall be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance
of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(5) That power includes power—
(a) to make different provision for different cases;
(b) to make provision subject to such exemptions and exceptions as the
Secretary of State thinks fit; and
(c) to make such incidental, supplemental, consequential and transitional
provision as he thinks fit.

(6) An offence under this section shall be punishable, on summary conviction—
(a) in England and Wales, with imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51
weeks or with a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or with
both; and
(b) in Scotland, with imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or
with a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or with both.

(7) In relation to an offence committed before the commencement of section 281(5)
of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44), the reference in subsection (6)(a) of this
section to 51 weeks is to be read as a reference to 6 months.

( In this section “realistic imitation firearm” means an imitation firearm whose
appearance is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical
purposes, from—
(a) a firearm of an existing make or model; or
(b) a firearm falling within a description that applies to an existing
category of firearms which, even though they include firearms of
different makes or models or both, all have the same or a similar
appearance.

(9) For the purposes of subsection ( an imitation firearm is not to be regarded as
distinguishable from a firearm for any practical purpose if it could be so
distinguished only—
(a) by an expert;
(b) on a close examination; or
(c) as a result of an attempt to load or to fire it.

31 Specification for imitation firearms
(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision requiring imitation
firearms to conform to specifications which are—
(a) set out in the regulations; or
(b) approved by such persons and in such manner as may be so set out.

(2) A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he manufactures an imitation firearm which does not conform to the
specifications required of it by regulations under this section;
(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it ceases to conform to the
specifications so required of it;
(c) he modifies a firearm to create an imitation firearm that does not
conform to the specifications so required of it; or
(d) he brings an imitation firearm which does not conform to the
specifications so required of it into Great Britain or causes such an
imitation firearm to be brought into Great Britain.

(3) An offence under this section shall be punishable, on summary conviction—
(a) in England and Wales, with imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51
weeks or with a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or with
both; and
(b) in Scotland, with imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or
with a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or with both.

(4) In relation to an offence committed before the commencement of section 281(5)
of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44), the reference in subsection (3)(a) of this
section to 51 weeks is to be read as a reference to 6 months.

(5) Regulations under this section may provide that, in proceedings for an offence
under this section, it is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that an
imitation firearm conforms to the required specification if it, or the description
of imitation firearms to which it belongs, has been certified as so conforming
by a person who is—
(a) specified in the regulations; or
(b) determined for the purpose in accordance with provisions contained in
the regulations.

(6) The power of the Secretary of State to make regulations under this section shall
be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a
resolution of either House of Parliament.

(7) That power includes power—
(a) to make different provision for different cases;
(b) to make provision subject to such exemptions and exceptions as the
Secretary of State thinks fit; and
(c) to make such incidental, supplemental, consequential and transitional
provision as he thinks fit.

32 Supplying imitation firearms to minors
(1) After section 24 of the 1968 Act insert—

“24A Supplying imitation firearms to minors
(1) It is an offence for a person under the age of eighteen to purchase an
imitation firearm.

(2) It is a offence to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of
eighteen.

(3) In proceedings for an offence under subsection (2) it is a defence to
show that the person charged with the offence—
(a) believed the other person to be aged eighteen or over; and
(b) had reasonable ground for that belief.

(4) For the purposes of this section a person shall be taken to have shown
the matters specified in subsection (3) if—
(a) sufficient evidence of those matters is adduced to raise an issue
with respect to them; and
(b) the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.”
(2) In the table in Part 1 of Schedule 6 (punishment), after the entry for section
24


33 Increase of maximum sentence for possessing an imitation firearm
(1) In the entry in Schedule 6 to the 1968 Act relating to section 19 of that Act
(mode of trial and punishment of possession of firearm or imitation firearm in
a public place)—
(a) in paragraph (b) of column 3 (offence to be triable either way except in
the case of an imitation firearm or air weapon), omit the words “in the
case of an imitation firearm or”; and
(b) in column 4, for “7 years or a fine; or both” substitute—
“(i) if the weapon is an imitation firearm,
12 months or a fine, or both;
(ii) in any other case, 7 years or a fine, or
both.”

(2) An offence in England and Wales under section 19 of the 1968 Act in respect of
an imitation firearm which is triable either way by virtue of this section is to be
treated—
(a) as an offence to which section 282(3) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003
(c. 44) (increase of maximum sentence on conviction of an either way
offence) applies; and
(b) as not being an offence to which section 281(5) of that Act (increase of
maximum sentence on conviction of a summary only offence) applies.

(3) This section—
(a) applies only to offences committed after the commencement of this
section; and
(b) so far as it relates to subsection (3) of section 282 of the Criminal Justice
Act 2003 or subsection (5) of section 281 of that Act, does not have effect
in relation to offences committed before the commencement of that
subsection.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:50 pm

Post by garyforce

you know........to be honest guys ...... ive just read that nonsense again ....... and it is nonsense !

and i was just thinking to myself .... you know..i wouldnt mind like having to get a license, keep my guns in a secure safe, or sign some decleration or something like that if thats what they wanted !

as far as im concerned myself and everyone on here (in the UK) that ive had dealings with are all genuine, responsible, enthusiasts. and i dont think we'd have a problem with that ... because we're not the ones who go out an hold up corner shops with a 1911 replica !

check out the statistics for gun crime in the uk .... and you'll find that NONE of it is commited by liscensed owners of firearms

ive often thought about getting a REAL gun lisence joining a rifle club or such like (when i can afford it ) so . ok ..i could accept those kinds of restriction / proceedures ..... its fair enough i think (pain in the arse but ok... if ignorant joe public and bleeding heart gun lobbyists wants it. fine ! )

but this nonsense...... well.....you'll pardon me for saying so guys but it takes the F****N P**S ! !

i mean.its like saying .... "oh ... we've found that people who collect starwars figures commit crimes.... i know.... we'll ban all toys ! "

WHAT ! ! ? ? ! ?

i mean the way i interpret it is i CAN own my guns .... and if they were in a suitable case or such like i COULD transport them in my car to another PRIVATE location and fire them. NOT in public though (but which 1 of us is stupid enough to do that anyway i ask you !

but the main thing seems that if this bill goes through i cant buy any more ! which stinks ! and also as someone mentioned earlier a total contradiction .... on the one hand it says you cant buy or sell replicas .... then on the other it says..raise the age limit for buyuing replicas to 18 ? ! ! ? ?

well what ever !

hehehe ..... i have to say lads i can finally relate to America's NRA slogan "you can have my gun when you ply it from my cold dead fingers ! " HAHAHAHA !

See yiz later guys
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:50 pm

Post by Mark

Hi Gary,

It is sad that your government is trying to ban simple toys But, the real truth here is the abuse of power in your goverment when dealing with the firearms owners in Britian and now, the airsoft,modelgun and air rifle owners.

I think that governments can (and will) abuse their citizens to a point and at that point the people will rebel against their prospective governments abuses and most likely with firearms in hand.

The systems of checks and balances that most govenments hate is usually enforced by the possession of firearms by ordinary people, not government troops.

If this simple checks and balances system is broken then the government in question is free to do as it pleases raise your taxes at will and at any time, elect themselves into power and have power until they die or retire etc.

Governments live to expand (no government wants to loose power and shrink) and they start getting larger by manufacturing crimes via new laws and regulations and then, when you make ideas and items illegal you have to hire more police and more judges and the government gets larger and then, you have to increase the number of prisons to hold these "newly made" criminals, and that employs more and more people and then, you have to hire people to overlook these new criminals that break these newly made laws and on and on it goes...

When the government no longer fears it's own people, it's free to do as it likes...

These new anti-replica laws aren't meant to stop crime or violence, they are meant to employ government workers and to get rid of the "gun culture" in Britian by removing the gun toys from the younger population and these people feel that this is the way to achieve this goal.

Remember,it's the young people that these anti-guners are "targeting" as their theory is if they can eliminate replicas and any references to guns in society at a young age then these people then will grow up not liking guns and then they won't join the "gun culture"as guns in their minds are to be feared and their owners are not trust worthy (and they are probably criminals)..

Anti-gunners are mostly mislead people that have no real clue what firearms are and what they are and aren't capable of in real life as these people are used to the T.V. dramas that they see every night where "gun violence" is normal and they naturally believe that the violence is real.

Guns will be with us for thousands of years and will probably never disappear as once something is invented, it stays with us until forgotten.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:52 pm

Post by Mark

Well John, you do live in a good country to collect modelguns as it sounds like you have some freedom to collect unchanged from Japan modelguns (no removed trademarks etc.)

I think that the airsoft hobby is far more popular due mostly to HK's cap ban as a modelgun with out caps is just a display but, you can shoot an airsoft gun. I can see why the modelgun hobby is being neglected in HK, but, since Dentrinity and the other airsoft dealers in HK offer them (although mostly for export) you should be in great shape other than the obvious problem of not being able to share your hobby with anyone other than us. But, John, you must know at least one other person that shares your modelgun hobby who lives close by don't you?

I have no one that even expresses an interest in my modelguns locally so, that is why i started this site.

さてジョン、あなたには日本modelguns(取り除かれた商標でないその他)から不変に集まる若干の自由があるようで、あなたはmodelgunsを集めるために良い国に住んでいます

私は趣味が大部分はmodelgunとしてのHKのキャップ禁止へのはるかにより人気がある与えられべきもので外はあるairsoftが脱帽することがちょうど表示であると思います、しかし、あなたはairsoft銃を撃つことができます。私はmodelgun趣味がHKでなぜ怠られているかについて見ることができます、しかし、DentrinityとHKの他のairsoft取扱業者が彼ら(大部分は輸出のためにであるけれども)を提供する時から、あなたはあなたの趣味を我々以外の誰もと共有することができない明らかな問題以外の大きな状態にあるはずです。しかし、ジョン、あなたはあなたのmodelgun趣味を共有する少なくとも1人の他の人を知っていなければなりません、すぐ近くの命は、そうしませんあなた?

私には、地元でそう私のmodelgunsに対する関心を表しさえして、そんなに私がこのサイトを始めた理由でさえある誰もいません。
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:52 pm

Post by Claymore

Well, the 2nd reading for the VCR bill went through the house of commons yesterday, again a lot of misinformed MP's getting facts wrong. It amazes me that people in their position just cannot be bothered to get there facts right when trying to pass such encompassing legistlation.

However there was also a lot of opposition to the bill and a good few tory MP's who were saying the right things. I suprisingly got a letter back from my MP (i honestly did not think he would bother) and the letter was favourable to our hobby.

I have now written to him again, my wife is a police officer so i can get hold of a lot of facts figures and accurate info on what is being used out there such as mag light torch 410 shotguns which believe it or not does not look like a gun, suprising that. Anyway i thought that as he had the decency to reply he might look at the info i have sent favourably and also that police officers themselves do not believe in this bill because asking them would be to easy would it not.

Anyway not all is lost yet, i still think that we will be affected but maybe not a total ban.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:53 pm

Post by Mark

Claymore, that sounds a little better but, as you say, they seem to find it hard to be swayed by FACTS rather, they like the FICTION better as it suits their agenda far better, and politicians like the "positive" sound that their crime control scheme seems to convey to the uneducated(firearms wise)public.

The politicians/anti gunners have tried this idea that is hatching in their small minds, in the U.S. back in 1987/88 and i am having to work with/around their few successes(orange muzzle paint trademark removal etc.) dealing with replicas in the U.S.

If these forces are successful in Britain, then unfortunately,it will eventually spread to Europe.

What's next? Will they ban pointed fingers? Blocks of wood and carving knives? Sticks? etc. As these can be used to simulate guns. The politicians/antigunners are misguided people, and they will often stop at no level of lies and deceit to get their way and facts just seem to confuse them.

These anti gun types believe that they can create an firearms free utopia and Britain seems to be their "target" for these twisted experiments and it appears that they are winning at this point.

The politicians that are going along "for the ride"have nothing to fear from the population as they are fully protected from their constituents as they have armed guards and you guessed it, guns...Also, they have their friends in the press that portray us all as raving lunatics and mad men.

After all, who would want to stand-up and protect the right to own deadly people-killing death-dealing machines like guns as all that they are good for is killing and you would probably just shoot either yourself or others with them...See, that is how we are viewed, by the anti-gunners and the general public and they of course, don't see all of the doctors,Policemen/women,professionals in all walks of life that collect and enjoy guns/replicas etc. As they are blinded by the press/movies that show nothing but violence...

The only way to get their attention, is to make them all unemployed...
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:54 pm

Post by Mark

Quote :
hi im from the uk and hopefully this bill will never pass if it does im moving country
Yep, it looks like you might not be alone! there will be plenty of others joining you as this might be the "last straw" for many of you in Britain..
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:55 pm

Post by SteveUK

Just sent this to my MP.

There is a proposal in the commons to ban replica guns. I believe this is misguided and many of the arguments are misleading.


Misguided
It is misguided since criminals will simply switch over to using real weapons, either knives or real guns. This is clearly not desirable. I am sure that most people would be more comfortable knowing that criminals are carrying fake guns rather than real weapons. Imagine being mugged in the street, which would you prefer the criminal to be carrying.

1. A real gun.
2. A knife.
3. A fake gun.

Only one of those can harm you. The choice is simple. For the criminal, replica guns are a safe option. They set about their crime knowing from the outset that no-one will be killed. By banning replica weapons you remove that safe option. It is true that crimes involving replica guns have increased, but this has partly been at the expense of crimes using real guns and other weapons. The important thing to realise is that in the crimes involving replica guns, innocent people were not shot and killed. When crime involves real guns and knives, deaths are the norm. A ban will simply result in crimes that are more likely to involve deaths.

Misleading
There seems to be a lot of propaganda circulating about replica weapons. The first important point is that replica guns are either made of plastic or cheap die cast metals. If you tried to fire a real bullet (if you could acquire one), the gun would just explode in your face. Despite this we see images of supposedly fake guns with enormous Hollywood-style blast flames emerging from their barrels.

The "Mothers Against Guns" web site carries the following statement.

"Replica guns are often more dangerous as they do not fire as accurately as normal guns."

This is simply false. Replica guns do not fire real bullets at all. The site also hosts a film showing children running around shooting each other dead. This is incredibly misleading. Firstly it implies that replica guns can be converted into fully functional weapons, and yet we know that the cheap construction materials will just result in the gun exploding. Secondly it implies that children have access to real pistol ammunition. If children really do have ready access to live pistol ammunition, that is a far more deadly threat than any cheap replica gun. You cannot buy live ammunition legally. That means the children have contacts in the criminal underworld to begin with, in which case they would also have access to real guns.

If you really wanted to make a gun, converting a replica gun is not the way to go, it is just suicidal. You would be far better off machining a simple gun from scratch from designs available on the Internet. Remember that guns are made in just this way in the third world. They do not try to convert replica guns. Guns are fairly easy to make with simple tools. Ammunition on the other hand is quite a different matter.

When you hear reporters talking about how easy it was to get a replica converted, they are talking about Brocock airguns. These guns have already been banned. You cannot ban them again. The problem is that thousands of them are still in circulation.

Banning replica guns will just result in an increase in the carriage of knives and genuine firearms smuggled in from Eastern Europe. If you really want reduce the number of innocent people killed by firearms, you could ban British arms sales instead. The weapons we sell around the world are used to kill countless thousands every year. It should be noted that we are quite happy to sell weapons to murderous dictators like Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan, who use them to mow down crowds of protestors.

Also, it would be a bit silly if it was illegal for me to buy a toy gun, but perfectly legal for me to buy a crossbow, which unlike most pistol ammunition, can happily slice straight through police issue body armour.
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:55 pm

Post by garyforce

some very good points made there steve !
in refrence to this point
Quote :
Imagine being mugged in the street, which would you prefer the criminal to be carrying.
1. A real gun.
2. A knife.
3. A fake gun.

I'D LIKE to be carrying a heavy duty set of brass knuckles ..... or a tazer gun ..........and put 20,000 volts through the M****R F****R ! ...... alas sadly, these are illegal ........ and if i did .... the poor innocent man mugging me would have me sent to prison
(sigh) ..... what a fabulous country we live in ! :?
personally.i think you yanks have got the right idea ...... any scumbag who breaks into MY house ....... isnt walking out ! Very Happy ...... and IF they ever find the body.....well they can take me to court Very Happy hehehe !
and with that rant i'll leave you with this fantastic quote of my dads
"i'm not prejudice ..... i hate everybody ! " Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:56 pm

Post by Mark (Aug 7 2005)

Welcome to the forums SteveUK!

As you well know, the right to possess blankfiring,airsoft,model,air and deactivated guns are under attack in Britain..Here is in the abbreviated form at least, my idea on the whole subject:

The problems in and with society cannot be solved with any legislation,law or decree as laws only affect the law abiding,honest people that are not involved with crime and who are usually the victims of rampant crime. Ever notice that the people that want gun control in any fashion, are usually well protected upperclass-rich-citizens that have 24-hour protection in good neighborhoods with low crime rates? It's these people that believe that made-for-TV-drama crime/violence is real life and this is also, what the TV also teaches the youth of the world that crime and violence is easier and more profitable than working for the low wages a McDonalds etc.

Firearms will never be controlled completely as they can be made (crudely) in your cellar or garage out of gas pipe,scraps of steel etc. If you want or desire guns, they can be found,made,bought or stolen. The Sten gun was made in garage workshops all over Britain during the second word war while they where fairly crude, they worked quite well...

Guns can be obtained anywhere in the world with enough money/time so, how in the world can anyone in their right mind, think that guns can be somehow eliminated from any society. Once something has been invented it tends to be improved etc. but, never discarded forever. Guns will be with us for hundreds of years if not forever (well as long as we don't wipe ourselves out first)

Gun control is usually embraced by politicians due mostly to their sense of self-preservation not your safety as how can you pass big tax increases and other bad legislation when the populace is armed and can make you think twice about passing bad legislation (see voting from the roof tops) No firearms,No worries! Also, the people that scream for gun control have no idea what firearms are about and, as you have noted Steve, they are trying to mis-lead the unknowing on the "Dangers" of replicas.

These "people" in the gun control movement will use any lies and obfuscation to achieve their sad goal of a gun free "utopia" they know perfectly well what the result will be...

You see, that self-protection means that you DON'T need the government/police and when you don't rely on the government/police the government/police forces have to cut back and get smaller and shrink in size thereby loosing government jobs and the need for a large government and the taxes to feed it...No countrys government likes to or wants to remain small or shrink they always grow and to grow, they must invent valid reasons to justify government expansion and spending.

This is not to say that governments are not necessary as they are needed ..But, when they become bloated with self serving officials that look for any excuse to increase the governments power.

Crime control/gun control is for fools that believe in fairy tails and the like as you cannot control the population of any country tightly enough to prevent crimes or violence as crime cannot be controlled by laws or regulation unless they figure out mind-control as crime is an acted out idea..Society drives crime not the availability of tools.

People often ask would you kill someone over your valuables/property? If you answer yes, they say that your valuables aren't worh the loss of one life. What i like to say to people like that is would you leave your valuables that you have worked hard for, out in the street or would just let a known burglar into your house and let him take all of your property and not resist as his life is more valuable than your hard work?

Firearms will always be with us and the people that hate and despise firearms will always be trying to control/ban them so, it's a win/loose battle that will be fought forever.

Now, this is what i can see as an American on the outside with little more than information that i have seen/read in the magazines i know that the information that i have seen is not quite accurate but here goes:
Britain used to be a great place for shooters and had lot's of firearms for shooters to enjoy along with great ranges to shoot them until 1934..But, even then it wasn't too bad and you could still individually own cool firearms for years afterward that was until-what?-1989? then it all went downhill fast..

But, the government, realising that they had to do something to pacify the former gun owners, they still allowed the possesion of the Blankfiring, deactivated and replica guns. This was not really a good substitute for the real firearms but, it was better than pointing fingers and going "bang!" But, the governments promised crime reduction programe didn't show the promised results for some reason? So, the government, in order to protect their arse and not look like miscalculating fools (hey, the U.S. goverment does this all of the time) The had to blame and control the remaining "reasons for crime" in Britain (I.E. blankfiring, airsoft,model, and deactivated gun owners)

If you want to increase the size of the police forces you have to have criminals and if you can't find any, create them...

Isn't it nice to think that well protected politicians can say that your possesion of airsoft,model,replica and deactivated guns is a danger to the public and the cause of crime?
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PostSubject: Re: Modelguns Future in Britain (Politics)   Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:57 pm

Post by Mark (Nov 26 2006)

We haven't talked about this subject for sometime..I wonder if this will ever see the light of day during Blairs administration. Is there any new news on this bill?


I have a feeling that the anti-replica bill will be passed soon with minor revisions for the groups that have bent your governments ears the most. The government(s) of any country or countries can be persuaded with common sense if they are presented with pure reason (and lots of money!) It all depends on how vocal you get and what press that you can get. The main trouble is that we in the firearms comunity will never get much in the way of press unfortunately due to the contrived and vitriolic bias that the press displays against us continually.

If we can face the facts and grasp that we will always be the presses and the politicians favorite scapegoat, then we can move forward. Politicians understand few things about the general public due to their insulation that they have carefully laid over the years. Politicians rarely feel any pain except when they loose power and have to actually work for a living...

Here is a simple solution for problems that we have with government(s) and what they do: Take away their bodyguards, private armies etc. and force them to defend themselves against any enemys that they may have created politically over the years. Radical thinking? No. Thats the way it used to be what? 60+ years ago? Good governments don't have well insulated officials and politicians. Good governments have people in them that face the same problems together not govern from a chauffeured limousine with lots of insulation from everyday life...

Gun control is merely another form of political power insulation that increases politicians escapism from work and survival that we all face every day...

The fact is that with this bill they simply are attempting to break the intrerest in firearms at an early age. That is, in the eyes of these social engineers that think this crap up is the most important step. You see, that the interest in firearms often begins at a very early stage with gun toys that the parents give the kids as they are deemed safe as they as simply toys to the parents.

My interest in fireams didn't start with gun toys. It started by watching WW2 movies, Gangster movies etc. Yet, governments rarely (if ever) go after movie makers and their sponsors for the simulated violence that they continually display.
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