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Cerwyn
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PostSubject: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:49 am

Post by 8ace (April 13, 2007)

From the Home Office
Quote :
The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 will make it an offence to manufacture, import or sell realistic imitation firearms except for certain specified purposes such as television, film or historical re-enactment. It will also become an offence to modify an imitation firearm to make it realistic. These new offences will be brought into effect later this year, possibly in October, but no firm date has been fixed as yet.
Nice to see they have got their act (no pun intended) together
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:50 am

Post by shazhib

I am just curious if VCR bans somebody borrows a modelgun from out/inside UK?

As you all know, it is banned to buy/sell pre-regulation models in Japan, what I heard some interesting story is, let's say there is a 2 parties trade a gun, it is actually a buy and sell, however, they make an agreement to comment if they been questioned by the authority :
"I didn't buy this from that guy, I just borrow him for 5 years so that the value paid was rental fee, not purchase"

Wonder this formula can be applied for VCR.....
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:51 am

Post by Claymore

The way i have read it is that this would be possibly (unless they have put in another clause) but in theory you could swap models as you would not be buying or selling, there are going to be a lot of loopholes in this and there will be ways round it for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:52 am

I wonder if the term "Trade" comes into the Act?
Swapping or exchanging goods for no cash transaction is still Trading isn't it?
Loaning or borrowing sounds plausible, but if it means shipping, exporting and importing to do so I'm sure they'll not allow that will they?

Anybody want to lend me an MP44 on long term please?

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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:53 am

Post by Spencerman (Sept 30 2007)

I was wondering if anyone has heard for sure how plastic model guns are going to be affected, as I was just thinking, as you do, how most of the model guns are sold by airsoft shops, would they maybe fit into this group, even though they do not fire? We know that they are not the same as blank firers, not even remotely really, and also would there not be some sort of exeption for what could be classed as 'museum' quality non firing models? I want to still be able to buy airsoft, but at the moment I am not going to register with anyone as I have had that all before, then when they ban that, they know who you are and what you have and where to find you. I would like to know however, if it is going to be illegal to sell airsoft or model guns to other countries? Say for instance, that I am not allowed to sell my M16 in the UK legally, but I am still allowed to own it (probably only because they dont know who has them!), can I still sell it to Madmike if he wanted to add yet another one to his collection of several hundred of them! Also I wonder, if the only way that I can obtain a certain part is to buy the whole gun, which I would not be able to do, could I buy it and then have it sent to me in component form? Would this also mean that kits like the M16 etc would still be able to be bought? I love clarity of law.

Also I just thought, what if I agreed to sell a gun now, but am not ready to do so until several months time, or until I am ready to part with it, is that ok to still complete the transaction later? If so, I could theoretically agree that I will sell any of my guns to any of the members here and strike a deal, then sell them at a later date when I am ready?
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:55 am

Post by Phobus (Sept 30, 2007)

This interests me as well Spencerman .

I have been trying to secure a sale with a guy for a metal uzi but told him I cannot pay until couple of weeks time . He says it would be ILLEGAL .

I said if the transaction is complete in all but the exchange of funds ,goods , and I would leave a deposit plus a written commitment to buy would that not be a legal transaction ?

I pointed out that many airsoft vendors , to my knowledge are taking new orders right up to 01.10.2007 even if the items are not yet in stock so what is the difference between that and a private arrangement ??

The transaction is completed but the goods not exchanged .

Also , re : the uzi I explained I would COLLECT the item thus avoiding any VCR related shinanigans from using the postal service .

Anyway the guy does not want to take the risk , and I suppose I am wrong in trying to talk him out of it . It is for sale on an open forum and another member wrote in to say the law seems to be more concerned with IMPORTING rifs than controlling the movement of ones already in the UK .

They also discussed how merely joining a skirmishing group is not sufficient to satisfy the law . Apparantly there is a requirement to actually SKIRMISH 3 times minimum per month to show you are an ACTIVE member and not someone who just wants to byepass these ridiculous laws .

So in order to satisfy our GOVT I have to run around in a muddy field 3 times a month waving my plastic guns around whilst getting pelted with plastic bbs !!! How undignified !! Maybe I could PAY someone to do it for me !!! Any takers ??

Maybe we should set up our own skirmish group where we sit in a nice warm spacious lounge , sipping a glass of chilled Chardonnay , with perhaps a few tasty nibbles , ( evening wear optional ) nice open fire , and take shots at each other across the dining table with our MODELGUNS !!

CARL.
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:56 am

Post by 8ace

With less that 12 hours till the ban is supposedly in force it would be nice for the government to let us know the facts of the law.

This is from modelgun.co.uk
Orders or pre-order sales paid and received before 01st October will be unaffected by the new laws

I can hear the countdown clock “dada dada da da da bwooo”
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:57 am

Post by Doc (Sept 30, 2007)

Sales are defined by receipt of funds, that is to say If a person agreed a sale and sent you the full amount of the funds pre Oct 1st then the sale is final .

If you happened to deliver the goods to him two months from now but have a receipt to show the sale was Pre Oct then the law could do nothing to you .

However someone couldn`t just send you £500 and then decide what they wanted later as you`d need to be talking about a specific item.

In addition you could not buy all the component parts of the gun and assemble a complete one after October (well unless you fit into one of the exceptions)
as you would be guilty of "manufacture"
hard to prove I know ...but technically possible ..you`d have to weigh up if the risk was worth the penalty .

One imagines that if convicted of a replica gun offence they would feel obliged to take all others away from you .

Not illegal to sell models to people in other countries however to import with this as a possible reason would have to be backed up by a proper business, tax code and all .

The gov won`t allow anyone to import something and have them say "yer I was gonna sell to my mate in Germany" this would provide too large a loophole for them to allow.

You could all technically set up a re-enactment group , you would need PLI , at minimum this would cost £500 ..if you raised this by charging membership then you would need to set up a committee, this would have to have several elected positions , bank account , treasurer , chairman,etc etc, you`d also have to have a set amount of meetings per year and also some AGMS with agendas etc
you`d have to work to a constitution and write up risk assessments for your events

do-able but a lot of work for some people and I`m not sure what historic event you would be re-enacting to allow you the free purchase of all the weapons within the modelgun range ...some Somalian uprising or something .

DOC

All I would say for certain is don`t purchase any post OCT produced models i.e new models ..as it would be much easier to prove you obtained this post October 1st 2007
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:58 am

Post by Phobus

What about things like magazines , cartridges , caps ?

Can we import those ?

Carl.

Don,t know where else to get them in the UK otherwise ......

We are SHAFTED !!
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:59 am

In addition to DOC's replies, might I add my ha'porth regarding the Airsoft skirmish issue (at risk of getting slightly off "modelguns" but still relevant hopefully).
Airsoft guns are still Realistic Imitation Firearms just like PFC Modelguns.
They definately fall under the VCRA
The Home Office have agreed to give Airsoft Skirmishers a defence against Section 30 (I think it's 30) of the VCRA provided they are signed up members of a Skirmish site registered and approved by the UKASGB.
Conditions are that the UKASGB govern the sites overall.
Each site must be seen to self police their membership scheme properly and responsibly.
I don't think anybody has to take part in skirmishes 3 times a month or whatever, but they need to show they're actively using any new gun they buy.
Airsoft retailers will have access to a database listing every member, ifyou're on it, they'll sell you a gun. If you're not, they wont.

Talk to your nearest sites, see what they have decided constitutes requirements to be a Member.
Just be sure they are in the UKASGB.

So at least Airsoft guns can be purchased, but only if you are Registered.
There doesn't seem to be any way around it Spencerman.

Re-enactment Groups may be a better option if we want to buy pfc guns though. As far as I know, there's only one UK based modelgun dealer now. I do not know if how he is going to decide who constitutes a legal buyer of modelguns.
I have joined a Reenactment group, I have my Membership card, but I don't yet know if I can buy a pfc gun, even though I am legally entitled to do so post Oct 1st as I am a paid up reenactor group member.

Likewise I've become Membership secretary of a local Airsoft site...

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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:00 am

Post by MadMike

As I am in Germany I am not the right person to give advice, and of course I don´t want to sound like a smart-ass. But I´d recommend to stay low profile within the next weeks, until the first offences are known and you can see how the act is enforced exactly. I´d say authorities need a few spectacular catches to show that the Act was the right decision, and of course no one wants to be the first to get busted. It will need time and a few court trials until we know what is legal and what not, and what is tolerated by authorities. At least that´s the way it would go here in Germany.

Ah yes, I have quite a few friends in the UK who are modelgun enthusiasts so I can exactly understand what you must be feeling in these days. Anyway you got to keep our heads, and enjoy the models you have already got. If you don´t make stupid things they should be safe. A cold comfort I know, but it is a comfort
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:01 am

Hi Carl,

As far as I know, magazines, cartridges, caps and spare parts are unaffected by the VCRA so we can still import them without any problems.

I forgot to metion this in my last reply:-

I don't know quite how Jay at modelguns.co.uk will manage to sell complete guns to us in the UK though, he's in France now so anything coming into the UK is imported isn't it?
I don't think being a EU member state makes any difference does it?

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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:01 am

Post by Doc

Im Pretty sure the Law will only allow you to buy guns within the period you are re-enacting.
For example I dont think HM customs are going to believe you need a chrome M9 for WW2 .

As I understand it (and apologies for talking about airsoft) the airsoft buyer will have already had to have been active at 3 skirmishes in a month before they can purchase something ..I.e you can be a member and go about twice a year but as soon as you want to buy a new gun you have to get active and be there quite a bit . in their eyes you have prooved your reason to buy a new gun. I did read somewhere it was going to take two months to get everyone onto the database .

as far as retailers in the UK they will need to see proof of

1. Age
2. membership of a group
3. details of the groups PLI (number and company its held with)
4. contact details of membership secretary and or group leader

the last one is speculation but the others will be required to cover the retailers behind and seeing as the law is directed at importers and retailers you can believe its in their interest to do so .

DOC
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:02 am

Post by Doc

By Jay selling you something from France he is covering his ass , you will be the importer so guilty of an offence under the Law .
He`ll keep your money and probably beyond the law as he will be selling from outside the UK .
Anyone legally allowed to import into the UK will be covered but then will not want to sell you something unless they can prove it was legal to do so .

see the Gov has thought about this ...

DOC
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:14 am

Thanks DOC

I agree with you, the replica weapon purchased for Reenacting must indeed be suitable for the period portrayed.

Do you know if Dealers of PFC modelguns will be asking prospective buyers for the same proof of Membership as the Airsofting brigade?


Doc wrote:
By Jay selling you something from France he is covering his ass , you will be the importer so guilty of an offence under the Law .
He`ll keep your money and probably beyond the law as he will be selling from outside the UK .
Anyone legally allowed to import into the UK will be covered but then will not want to sell you something unless they can prove it was legal to do so .
see the Gov has thought about this ...
DOC
I thought as much frankly. It's no different to a Hong Kong dealer taking the order is it? The seller won't be prosecuted as it's the buyers responsibility to ensure that importing is within the Law.
I notice some of the Far Eastern dealers have actually stopped taking orders from the UK for complete RIFs

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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:14 am

Post by Doc

UK ones will be bound by law to do so ...same goes for anyone attempting to sell privately too .

For example , I`m a re-enactor ..you could sell me your MP40 next week ...however .... is it an offence for you to have not asked me for proof although you knew I was one ???

when you think about the risk (not just loosing your collection but liberty as well) I think everyone will be pretty careful.

DOC
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:15 am

Right then, so there won't be a Reenactors Data Base (yet anyway) as the UKARA and UKASGB are setting up for Airsoft sales?

Proof of Membership of a Bona Fide group is all important clearly.

Private transactions will have to involve production and inspection of the Membership Card...

Presumably a dealer would need to contact the Reenacting Group's Membership Secretary for verification if the dealer was taking an on-line order for a RIF?

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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:16 am

Post by Doc

I presume so yes , however to cover his butt I imagine a dealer would want to contact the group each time a purchase is made (to ensure said buyer had not been kicked out for some reason in which case dealer would not be covered) and then pretty soon a group may become fairly disenchanted with new members and the constant need to support them ..

Most regular re-enactors will not buy more than one weapon (not true of some) whereas someone who collects is likely to require more than one gun .
Same with airsofting types ...most of them will have six plus weapons and the reason a database could be set up between UK retailers is that there is lots of them so the effort is shared ...plus most UK airsoft retailers will ONLY have UK sales on items .
The same wont be said for anyone retailing modelguns ...just look at this forum ..people from all over the world ...and Wales .

DOC
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:17 am

Post by Phobus

Do any of you guys think , as I do , that this law is just unenforcable ?

How on EARTH are the Police going to find time to check up on this , that and the other to do with this DAFT law ?

Just as a for instance . How are customs dudes , or police for that matter ,going to know which gun comes from which era ??

Are they really going to have some guy in an office with a copy of Janes in one hand, and a War through the ages volume in the other ??

Near me there are loads of little shops selling cheap bb guns and I am going down there midweek just as an experiment to see if they still have them on the shelves . I bet they do .

Also , I have already decided that if I have to start jumping through hoops to keep my hobby , I might just as well go back to real firearms .
I have a club near me with a 30m indoor and 100m outdoor range , and to me it is a better option .

Carl.
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:17 am

Post by Doc

Its not a case of how enforceable it will be ..its a case of they will have a NEW LAW they can use if need be .

e.g some twonk is seen in his local high street waving a replica around ..van pulls up six burly officers drag him away , when asked when and where did he get said "lethal looking toy"...maggot says over at XYZ shop the other day .

Fuzz turn up arrest seller and then asks him to prove this sale was legit ..plastic gun dealer is charged and police think thats the last time they have to deal with that sort of thing along with a lovely headline " illegal arms dealer locked up ..labour keeps UK safe "

same goes if someone is caught importing one and the boys in blue pop your door off at 3.00 am " gun enthusiast found importing illegal arms" ...please vote labour ...

DOC
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:19 am

Post by Doc

Phobus wrote:

Near me there are loads of little shops selling cheap bb guns and I am going down there midweek just as an experiment to see if they still have them on the shelves . I bet they do .
well if they sell you one you should turn around and ask for another three thrown in for nowt in order to keep quiet.
as I see it you will not be breaking the law by buying one ...the seller will
DOC
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:20 am

The last little precinct shop around here selling really cheap and 'orrible little BB guns was visited by a number of burly Police Officers and taken away on a Saturday morning. His shop was cleared of it's stocks including several Samurai swords and those "Fantasy" daggers etc.
That was about 12 months ago...
One or two dealers selling BB guns have been carted away from Car Boot Sales too, never to be seen again.

The Enforcing of the Law is effectively going to carried out by the Dealers themselves.
Not one reputable Dealer is going to risk his Business and a Gaol Term by selling a replica gun to anybody that cannot prove they're Legit.

Similarly, selling a Replica privately to somebody you don't know (very very well) could be extremely risky. Don't even think about Classified Ads in the Papers, Mr. Plod could turn up, pretending to be a buyer couldn't he?

The UK Airsoft site has wound down its' Classified Ads section already so Skirishers can only buy from UK dealers (or their mates I guess)

MadMike has suggested keeping our heads down awhile to see what happens... He has a good point there!
Big Brother is going to be waiting to pounce in dramatic style to prove they're doing something successfull to stop people shooting each other...
Arrests of Replica Gun Dealers and Importers will do nicely for the Headlines if nothing else.

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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:21 am

Post by Phobus (Oct 1st 2007)

Well , I just came back form the local precinct and guess what ?

All the stuff is there up on the shelves just as before .

Airsoft springers , cheap aegs and even a couple of GBBs and shotguns .

Only signs I saw were the usual " no under 17 " " no public places " stuff .

I nearly bought one just on principle - if they were,nt so CRAP !!

Mind you it is a bit back of beyond where I live : ferrets and black pudding country maybe they will get the 14 years old , midget PCSO,s to go and have a quiet word . They don,t seem to have much else to do .

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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:22 am

Post by 8ace (Oct 1st 2007)

What I still cant understand is that there doesn’t seem to be information available to the general public (like me) about today’s new legislation and considering that I could go to jail if I break this law seems very wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: VCRA   Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:22 am

Post by Phobus (Oct 1st 2007)

Airgun bbs forum is still advertising secondhand AEGs for sale !!

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