Marushin M16 Series... Shooting Impressions

Post by Phobus

I Loaded 10 carts and test fired my Marushin M16 last night .
This was the first time I shot it .
After reading - and re reading The Marushin review on Arniesairsoft I followed the loading instructions meticulously .

I did not have a loading tool so improvised with a bolt I had handy - the immediate problem I found was the 5mm cap would not stay put in the 7mm cap . I think these came loose later when in the gun and caused misfires.

Finally I had 10 little carts in front of me all shiny and ready to go. I fed them into the newly oiled magazine . Clicking the mag into place felt great then pulling back the charging handle and seeing the bolt strip a rd from top of the mag - thats what these guns are all about !! right ?KEERRRCHHUUNK - LOCKED AND LOADED .

Clicking the selector onto semi I canted the rifle a bit cos I wanted to watch the firing cycle - I put pressure on the trigger - heheheh - more pressure - this trigger is heavy !! The trigger seemed to be stuck - whats this ?? After a bit of messing about with the selector - it ended up on auto and I got a 3 rd burst - WOW that was loud , and the carts disappeared behind the dining table. Making nice brassy clinks as they went.

Feed jam . Ejected the round trying to keep the shot ones away from the misfires . BBRRAAPPP .... fEED JAM ....another 2 rd burst . I ended up with 3 bursts and 3 jams . Nice sound - no flame that I noticed - but some smoke . I think the caps problem is what caused the misfires but I could be mistaken . I tried placing the 5mm caps into the 7mm caps BEFORE pushing the caps into the cart , but still the little cap seemed to move about too easily .

Ah well - thats my first shooting impressions . Very nice . I even kind of enjoyed loading the carts !! Any advice regarding the caps would be appreciated from more experienced MODELGUNNERS !!
I am already looking into buying another model gun - an Ingram so I must be hooked

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by 8ace

Hi Carl,

Here is a link to a post with the dimentions of the Marushin loading tool.

http://www.mp40modelguns.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=1202&highlight=

Post by Mark

Carl,

The 5mm caps can be a pain to hold in place inside the cartridge. If you really need to put them in your cartridges try to place the 5mm caps on the pin at the bottom of the cartridge first and then, with the base of the cartridge on a table assemble the cartridge. When the cartridge is assembled, take a rod etc. and push down the "piston" and the 7mm cap assy through the detonator entry hole so the piston/cap stops against the 5mm cap on the bottom. That should stop the 5mm cap from escaping...
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Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Claymore

Good advise mark that little cap is a pain, loud though. Ah! phobus you have found the problems with the marushin, will it fire wont it fire, will it fire 1 or 2 shots or go full auto, this is a model that needs very suttle adjustments to get it working right and so far i have not found every one that you need.

Post by Phobus

Thanks Mark and Claymore .

You seem to imply that I do not NEED to use a 5mm cap in addition to the 7mm cap ? Is that correct ?

Only, every review I read says the Marushin requires 2 caps to function reliably .

Could you please respond ?


Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Claymore

you can put a used 7mm cap over the pin in the base of the round (use a hole puch to put a whole in it first) open side facing up, then load the round the normal way with just 1 x7mm cap then when you go to screw the bas on on to the body you will carefully have to feed the rim of the used cap into the base of the body. This cap then acts as a seal and gives just one cap enough power to make the gun work. This is of course not as loud as the 2 cap method but it also does not destroy rounds as quick. Give it a go and see which method you prefer.

Hiya Phobus et all!

Yep, familiar problems aren't they???
As you said though, watching the action and seeing the rounds get flung accross the room, without smashing any crockery or TV's on the way makes it an experience worth repeating!

As Mark and Claymore have suggested already, What I do with mine is load the new 7mm cap in first, just push it into the case mouth and in another 3-4mm at most, drop a 5mm cap into the 7mm one, powder side facing you. If you look at the cartridges firing pin, estimate it's length then gently push both 7 and 5mm caps either further in, or back up the cartridge until you get to the point that the firing pin is JUST sitting inside the 5mm one when it's screwed on. It takes a bit of guestimating and effing about but you'll get there!
When checking for misfires and causes, carefully unscrew the round...
If the 5mm cap's impaled on the firing pin and the 7mm's black then you got a successful fire, but if the 5mm cap's tipped over, or squashed through it's side then yes, it's too far away from the pin when you assemble it and it just topples when you put the round on it's side.
Plenty of silicone grease on the 7mm cap's edges will have it sliding nicely to give you that fast eject.
Glad you're enjoying it so far!
Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Spencerman

Just out of interest, has anybody tried to glue the 5mm cap inside the 7mm one first? I dont have an m16 variant yet, but it is next on my shopping list at the moment, so cannot speak from experience, but surely cannot a little tiny dab of super glue on the wall of one do the job to stop it moving?
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Post by Phobus

Hhehhe

Spencerman , that was EXACTLY what I was thinking .

I was going to experiment with Cerwyns method , but I thought a tiny dab of super glue on the back of the 5mm cap then push it CAREFULLY onto the 7 mm should hold it perfectly in place ??

I am going to try it later tonight .

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Hey... now there's a thought!
The round's firing pin will penetrate the 5mm cap no problem and ignite the 7mm one but would the glue be too hard if it's on the 7mm's charge?
On the side could work as long as it stays central enough for the pin to strike it clean.
Lemme know how you get on please?

Good luck
Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Mark

Phobus wrote:

Thanks Mark and Claymore .
You seem to imply that I do not NEED to use a 5mm cap in addition to the 7mm cap ? Is that correct ?
Only, every review I read says the Marushin requires 2 caps to function reliably .
Could you please respond ?

Carl. :wink:

Carl,
In reallity, NO, you do not need two caps to operate the Marushin or any other properly loaded modelgun cartridge. The main reason that people seem to use the two cap idea is when they have tried to use one cap and failed to get either the noise that they desired (too quiet!) or they where simply out of ideas on how to get the heavy bolt to blow back properly with just one cap.
The two cap system is actually even suggested in the Marushin assembly instructions. (they do want to sell more cartridges huh?) along with cutting/modifying the hammer spring to reduce its tension.
The fact is that friction, improperly loaded cartridges, gas leaks (pierced caps etc.) low extractor spring tension all contribute to jams, and non-running modelguns...

Post by Madmike

From the date of production of your gun I´d say it has the early, heavy bolt carrier. It is very hard to get a Marushin M16 with the heavier bolt carrier operate correctly with one cap I experienced.
But of course Mark is right. The carts have to be loaded well.

The bolt carrier of the NewMGC M16s is rather heavy too, and these guns have strong hammer springs. But their cartridge design is better and not as prone to gas leakages.

Anway I managed to blow three (3!) threads off the carts when I fired my MGC M-725 last time.

Post by Mark

Hi MadMike,

Yes, you are right, I forgot that Carl is dealing with the early heavy zinc bolt carrier assy..These where later replaced with the current aluminum bolt carrier in the subsiquent versions of the Marushin M16 series. The early zinc alloy carriers must be somewhat "hefty" and their mass is difficult at best, to move with even the properly loaded cartridges. There just might be a fix that the Marushin M16 series really needs and it is quite easilly done...Use MGC cartridges in them.

The MGC cartridges could be used with a custom made detonator assy as the general cartridge diameter is the same other than the opening in the case mouth.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by 8ace

All of the 7mm caps are pierced when they are fired from my M16, but this is the only way that they can vent the gas? or is this the problem?

Whe using the Marushin loading tool i haven't had a problem with the 5mm cap falling out.

Post by Mark

The Marushin detonator and the "pistons" are designed to allow the caps to rupture after they are ignited. This allows the gasses to escape and create the muzzle "smoke" that everyone seems to like. I think that while the system works ok when everything is perfect, it still allows gasses that could have been useed to blow back the bolt/carrier assy, to escape.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Phobus

Well , I just had a very successful 10 rounds of fire with the Marushin M16 with a combination of Cerwyns suggestions - placing the 5mm cap almost against the pin of the cart . Also , using glue to attach the 5 and the 7mm caps together - which was a partial success but the glue and the caps did not seem to bond very well . Not one misfire tho, mmmm...

Now I have a new problem - heheh ...these modelguns are a laugh arn,t they !! I,m glad I am not in the jungles of Vietnam and depending on one of these to keep me alive !! - The bolt moves so fast that it is catching the ejecting , fired cart, before it leaves the chamber and jamming every 2-3 rds . So I clear the rd , chamber the next and off we go again .

Any ideas anyone ? Actually it is quite intriguing moving from one problem to the next one . I wanted to see if I could get a clean 10 rd burst but it would,nt have it . I,m still having fun tho,

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Mark

Carl,

The problem that you are possibly facing is that the extractor isn't grabbing the cartridge rim with enough force to extract and hold the cartridge so the ejector can hit it as to throw the casing clear of the gun.

Can you disassemble your bolt and remove the extractor? If so, check the spring as well as the extractor itseelf. Is the spring or the extractor damaged? Also, there is a small cast-in projection for the extractor on the bolt itself. These projections can become damaged as the extractors are stamped steel and they hit the cast zinc projection all of the time that cartridges are being extracted.

If the extractor is holding the cartridges correctly and tightly, the jams that you speak of will dissapear!
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Carl just described almost exactly the same problems I'm getting with my XM177E2.
Thanks Mark, I'll have a good look at my extractor as you've described!

I hope Carl will keep us posted too! Great to see Carl enjoying himself, that's what it's all about.

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Madmike

This is a problem which seems to appear on every Marushin M16 after some use. I have the 3rd bolt assy in my XM177E2. The bolt head is designed much too weak. But modelguncollector (MGCUK) are working on a custom bolt. Let´s see if this will cure the problem.

MadMike wrote:

This is a problem which seems to appear on every Marushin M16 after some use. I have the 3rd bolt assy in my XM177E2.

My XM177 has been like this from new! If the bolt design is weak, it's possibly a bad design straight out of the box.
However, fine tuning and careful set up and assembly could well lessen the problem.
A custom bolt that works sounds good to me though...
Cerwyn

Post by Mark

MadMike wrote:

modelguncollector (MGCUK) is working on a custom bolt. Let´s see if this will cure the problem.

Yes, That would make the Marushin a cartridge slinging machine! As the extractor problem is the key to most Marushin problems (and many other modelguns at that)
I think the best method of making a new steel bolt head is to investment cast one as the Marushin bolts internal design would be hard to machine correctly not to mention the "locking lugs" on the bolt's front.

Hiya Carl,

How are you getting on with your M16 these days???

Have you tried selecting SEMI Auto, loading 10 rounds and firing all 10 in quick succession?
I mean pull the trigger 10 times as fast as you can...

Can you get consistent firing and ejecting then or do you still get jamming problems?

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Phobus

Thanks Cerwyn ,

and sorry about the delay .

Its funny you should ask because I have been playing around with it a bit lately although I was thinking of selling it so I can concentrate on pistols - which is my preferred modelgun really .

I got a loading tool with my recently acquired Mauser and I have learned that precise placement of the cap in the 5.56 size case is key to getting reliable function . Also , getting the little cap just right is essential.

I think a lot of the problems I have were down to me guesstimating the position of the 7 mm cap in the cart . I also cleaned / lubricated the internals / bolt of the M 16 which although not very dirty - now functions much better .

This morning I got a 10 round burst without any jams or sticking rds getting caught in the closing bolt . Brilliant !! Mind you the gun WAS set on semi but , hey I,m not complaining . The fire selector has never been very positive and I understand its a common fault .

The gun is LOUD too with the 7 mm and 5 mm caps fitted on full -auto OK not loud like a blank firer but still very loud and loads of smoke . Not much sparks tho, but I will try again this pm and see if you get anything in the dark.

Now where DID those bloody cartridge cases go ??

Thanks CARL.
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Marmite enthusiast

Hey Carl,

Brilliant mate, I'm glad you got it working at last!
Those little 5mm caps are surprisingly loud aren't they? I've got a MAC11 that uses just one 5mm cap in each round and bloody hell it sounds really good. Mind youthe rate of fire is so fast you problably hear 3 or 4 shots as if they were one!

My XM177 sounds good and loud with the 2 caps and there's plenty of blowback power to really wallop that bolt back and throw the spent case out hard and fast. I am keen to try using a dead 7mm cap as a seal as I know the more knowledgable lads like Mark and Claymore are well aware that using 2caps ain't really recommended as it subjets the cases to excessive internal pressure (I'm sure you've read the discussions by now!)

Smoke pours out of my XM177 when firing, most of it seeps out through the handguard vents but there is a cure for that too (Mark posted a tip about sealing the gas bypass joint with silicone sealant or similar) that should allow all the smoke to vent from the ejection port and muzzle.
I don't know if youll get any sparks from the muzzle though, it's a long barrel that, I'd think the sparks would have "gone out" by the time they reach the muzzle end mate.

You said you fired 10 off with the switch in Semi, and got a good problem free 10rd burst... Did you actually get a 10 AUTO burst or did you pull the trigger 10 times in quick succession?

I'm getting curious now, could it be the model bolt is too light and travelling too fast? What I mean is could the model gun be tripping itself up because the rate offire it's attempting to run at is too fast for itself?
If squeezing the trigger 10 times in quick succession achieves perfect function is that because we can't squeeze as fast as a full auto burst?

Any ideas anyone? Didn't the Marushin bolts come in heavier metal years ago? Did they perform better than the Aluminium/zinc version now?
I wonder what would happen if some weight was added to the bolt?

If you want to see and hear a real M16 in auto mode, get onto www.youtube.com , select Videos section, then just type in M16A1... One of the many clips is a factory/military promo vid of the M16...

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by shazhib

Cerwyn,

I think this model came out with zinc alloy first, then, switched to aluminum alloy because of a bad firing performance.
cheers,