SEPA - alternate payment method?

Folks,

PayPal is the standard method of payment used in many transactions here and in many other forums.
It is probably the easiest method, but not without some inconveniences: 4% fee, issues trading (model)gun-related things and so on.

There is another payment possibility that should work fairly well within European Union.
SEPA, or "Single European Payment Area", is a new EU standard for all bank transfers, without local/international distinction.
It tries to simplify payments, and it has one very interesting feature: fees are zero (or very, very low).

Advantages:
- direct bank transfers within EU (plus several other countries).
- zero, or low fees.
- security and protection based on banking standards.
- money gets in your account, no need for intermediate transfers.

Potential disadvantages:
- limited to EU (plus a few other countries like Norway)
- lack of "revert payment" or "dispute" facilities.
- still not advised to put "for Glock 17" as payment description ;-)
- not all banks fully implement SEPA yet. Some banks say they are "SEPA compliant", but they only allow free processing of _incoming_ payments. They still make you pay international fees when you make a payment. By 2011 SEPA should replace all other transfer methods, making our lives easier.

Not disadvantages:
- you need to provide your account number to the other party. Contrary to popular belief this is not a problem, as account number itself is not a secret or confidential data. If you look at Japan or Poland, most auctions are paid by bank transfers, and it works well in practice. Often bank account number is publicly given in auction text.

I know that SEPA is not going to replace PayPal, but it is good to know about this possibility. Certainly for folks living within EU, and who trust each other, this can be a 4% cheaper alternative.

More information about SEPA:
http://www.ecb.int/paym/sepa/html/links.en.html
http://www.ukpayments.org.uk/payment_options/cross_border_payments/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

(edit: corrected ukpayments link)

Thanks for posting this.
However, I love PayPal system. That's why I'm very dissapointed with the most recent developments in my aspirations to get those lovely toys (you all probably already know why I'm here). Now, it seems that in this moment, ModelgunsWorldwide can't do anything for me. So, I turned to ModelgunCollector. To my surprise, they informed me that they can get me several of desired Old West handguns. And when I thought that everything's finally ok, they told me that I can't pay with PayPal! I'm so dissapointed. I'm getting real frustrated with all this. I mean, I just want a few realistic replicas from Old West era, I'm not asking to have them for free, I'm willing to pay good money... and still, I'm constantly running into obstacle after obstacle. Maybe I should forget this whole idea, and get myself a real gun, I think that would be easier and cheaper. First I can't find models which I want, then I found out about many possible technical problems and flaws, then official manufacturers' sites (Japanese) don't ship overseas, and when I finally find where I can get em - I can't use PayPal, because PayPal "doesn't like steel modelguns". Geeez! ModelgunCollector wants me to pay via international bank transfer and Western Union, but I'm not familiar with that. And I don't like to mess around with my money if I don't know exactly what I'm doing and how does it works. And I can already feel that when I do finally manage to pay them, I'll probably receive wrong or faulty gun, or Customs will call police who will confiscate my modelgun and charge me.
Shit.
Should I stick with collecting CDs?

Ugh, PayPal and their "gun" policy... Sorry to hear about these problems.

I had similar fears before my first purchase - I was afraid of paying abroad, customs (even if I knew content is ok) etc.

Fortunately international bank transfers are not that difficult, and cost is actually lower than PayPal.
I have used such transfers several times for payments to Germany, Austria, Switzerland and UK, without problems.
This was for paying a company, and individuals.

To make international transfer you need two pieces of data from recipient: IBAN (International Bank Account Number) and SWIFT (identification of receiving bank). In internet banking I just select "international transfer", input IBAN, name and address of recipient and SWIFT. System automatically fills in bank info from IBAN and SWIFT. The last step is to chose who pays cost of transfer. You should choose "OUR" which means that you pay all costs (both your bank and recipient bank), and full transfer amount arrives to recipient.
If both banks support SEPA, method is the same, but you choose "SHA" for cost sharing. Since SEPA should have zero costs, it means nobody pays and full amount arrives to recipient. Note: if you use "SHA" and banks do not support SEPA, recipient will receive amount minus costs, which may not be acceptable!

It takes a few days for bank transfer to arrive. You can pay extra to get "next day" transfer, but it is usually not worth it. If there is some problem with transfer (invalid data, wrong IBAN), your bank will return it to you with note. You can then call the bank to ask for explanation.

Cost of transfer depends entirely on banks. There is usually a fixed minimum cost, so if you make a small transfer, it will be relatively high. For larger transfers it came up to under 3% (total), so better than 4% in PayPal.

Making international transfer for the first time can be scary :-) Just like with everything, this first time seems difficult, but later you discover it is not as bad as it seemed. My first transfer was when Poland was not in EU, but it was not a problem after all.

I cannot say anything about Western Union because I've never tried to use them.


For you other fears, it can be resolved, with a bit of planning.

Ask seller what is their policy if you receive a faulty gun. They will most likely tell you that they check everything before shipping, and that you need to check package for physical damage before signing it off from Post/Courier. They should also tell you what to do if there is some problem. I am sure other members here who have bought from MGCUK can share their customer service experience with you.

Import is something that YOU need to take care of. First of all make sure you know your local regulations. If modelguns are legal (this should be easy to check with law rules), try to ensure that there is enough information for Customs when they receive the package. Prepare a written note in English/Croatian, send it to MGCUK and ask them to print it and include in the package. Usually such companies already have existing forms explaining the content as "theatrical props" or similar, but if you add your own it could only help.

I imported many models and airsofts, by Post, Courier and severl in my checked luggage on airplane - except for a single case (described in other thread) I never had a problem. In that single case model was sent without any instructions or explanation of the contents - my fault.

If you want to be extra sure, you can try official way - write to Police (weapon department) or Customs an official letter explaining that you plan to import a Japanese toy that looks like gun, but is made of plastic/weak metal, and cannot shoot anything or be modified to shoot. Also explain that it is not a blank firer or black powder firer. If you make correct description (where based on your local regulations you demonstrate this is not a weapon), you should receive reply that this is not considered a weapon and can be imported. Scan this letter and ask MGCUK to insert it in package.
Please note that this may take weeks for Police/Customs to reply to you, and also you need to make absolutely sure from the description that somebody will NOT confuse it with blankfirer or real weapon.

Hi Mortimer,

You may not be aware that Paypal UK implement a total ban on all transactions involving Complete or Parts of Real or Replica Firearms.
Similarly, e-Bay UK, part of the same group of companies as Paypal, also implement the same ban.
Quite why this is so, when e-Bay USA, for example, openly trade in Replica and toy guns, as well as some parts for real weapons, is a mystery to me but that's the situation we face here in the UK.
There's very little we can do about it unfortunately.

Paypal have, and still do, close customers' accounts if it comes to light that a "Gun" related sale has been paid for using their facilities.
Little wonder in that case, that ModelgunCollector.co.uk cannot accept Paypal as a means of payment.
International Bank Transfers are a relatively simple and secure means of payment and shouldn't pose any problems.

I know from personal experience how abruptly Paypal shut down accounts, I was involved in one such case when I bought a Marushin M16 magazine some time ago. The private seller had his account closed immediately.

Personally, I find it reassuring that ModelgunCollector.co.uk are safeguarding yourself as the paying customer, and of course themselves as the seller, against any possible hassles from Paypal so I wouldn't personally be quite so hard on them.
There are, unfortunately, some other dealers around the World that would happily take your money and let you sort out any resulting difficulties you encounter with Paypal or any other Authorities.

We are ALL finding it more and more difficult to buy Replica guns these days. The VCRA here in the UK has severely restricted sales of Replicas to Reenactors and Registered Airsofters, any infringement carrying severe penalties, Australia has a virtual total ban on all imports, several European countries are imposing more and more restrictions.
It's the Law makers that put up all these obstacles, not the Retailers.

You mention that you fear Customs may notify the Police if they intercept a package containing a replica gun addressed to you. If the Law has banned imports of replicas then that may well be likely. If you've bone fide documents giving you the right to legally import then you've nothing to fear, but if you have not, then you may well be acting illegally. Make sure you know the Laws that apply in your Country before you consider importing anything.

I would say that other than as a paying customer, I have no business connections with ModelgunCollector.co.uk. I have bought modelguns from them in the past and always found them to be helpful and keen to advise. The models I have bought have been exactly as described, in good working order and after sales service has always been excellent.

Wow guys, you didn't have to spend so much time to answer me, I appreciate it, thank you for effort.

smootik thanks for all the info about money transfers. I'll talk to my bank about it. I had hundreds of international internet transactions (mostly CDs), but I've never used the transfer which you described.

smootik wrote:

better than 4% in PayPal

That 4% is the least problem in my life.

smootik wrote:

My first transfer was when Poland was not in EU

Croatia is still far from EU.

smootik wrote:

I cannot say anything about Western Union because I've never tried to use them

I've tried it only once, a long time ago, and I've said never again, because it was too complicated and much too expensive. Seller also hated it, but she agreed to do me a favour.

smootik wrote:

For you other fears, it can be resolved, with a bit of planning.

Those maybe aren't real fears, but more that kind of uneasy feeling, when everything's going bad with someting, and you kinda feel that you should quit before it gets even worse.

smootik wrote:

First of all make sure you know your local regulations. If modelguns are legal

There probably isn't any regulations, guys at Customs never heard of model guns. So you see now what I'm up against here. No-one knows what will happen. Lack of regulations could be a blessing - or a nigthmare.

smootik wrote:

Prepare a written note in English/Croatian, send it to MGCUK and ask them to print it and include in the package.

They already proposed that to me.

Cerwyn wrote:

that's the situation we face here in the UK.

Right... enslave half the world for centuries, and now suddenly UK is the highest moral standard country.
(Don't take it personal.)

Cerwyn wrote:

I find it reassuring that ModelgunCollector.co.uk are safeguarding yourself as the paying customer, and of course themselves as the seller, against any possible hassles from Paypal so I wouldn't personally be quite so hard on them.

In fact I'm not, I'm frustrated with overall situation, my angry writing was pointed towards PayPal and politics. At this moment, it seems that if I'll do business with someone, that'll be ModelgunCollector.co.uk.

Cerwyn wrote:

We are ALL finding it more and more difficult to buy Replica guns these days. The VCRA here in the UK has severely restricted sales of Replicas to Reenactors and Registered Airsofters, any infringement carrying severe penalties, Australia has a virtual total ban on all imports

I know, I've read here all about it. I say again - it's easier and cheaper to get real gun. (At least in my part of the world.) That's sad truth behind all those modelgun restrictions.

Croatia is not in EU yet, but already part of SWIFT system that covers Europe (real Europe, not just European Union). I suspect that as a part of preparations for EU your country will also have to move to SEPA in near future, but for a moment SWIFT is enough.

At the bank ask about SWIFT transfer to UK, they should let you know what information is needed (most likely address, IBAN and SWIFT of recipient) and what will be full cost of normal (not fast/express/urgent) transfer of XXX EUR.

As for the "fears", I understand what you mean. Just could not find a good English word ;-) maybe "uncomfortable" or "queasy".

For regulations, there must be something. I do not believe that there is "lack of regulations".
Remember that your goal is to show that what you import is NOT a weapon under your regulations. At the very least Croatia has a regulation about real firearms that has to contain a definition of firearm. Learn what is number of this regulation, and use it in the paper to be included with model: "This model does not fit firearms definition of regulation XYZ and therefore is not a firearm".

Ask on airsoft or paintball forum, for sure they know which regulation allows airsoft replicas and paintballs.

Most likely you also have some regulations about blankfirers, gas guns, airguns or pneumatic weapons, probably as a part of the the same firearms regulation. This applies usually to importing airsoft, but you can also say "Further, based on ABC this model is not a pneumatic weapon, blankfirers..." and so on - if there are any other categories for forbidden/permit only weapons explicitely mentioned in regulations.

Here in Poland there are four sections of regulations:
- real firearms. Anything you import cannot be, or contain one of "critical parts", which are well defined in regulation. For modelguns I write "this toy does not contain any critical part as defined by XYZ and therefore is not a firearm".
- blank firers and gas guns. There are separate limitations, for example max. blankfirer caliber without permit is 6mm. Since modelguns do not use primers, explosives or other material from blank-firers, they do NOT fall under this category, regardless of caliber (or cap size). Text goes like "this toy cannot use blank cartridges, primers.... and does not belong to this category".
- historical firearms. If constructed, or replica based on construction before 1850 it is allowed without permits.
- pneumatic weapons. These are above 17J of power and require permit. Under 17J they are allowed. Again, modelgun does not send any projectile, so I write that, saying that "this toy is not capable of shooting any projectile and does not belong to pneumatic weapon category".

DO NOT try to explain directly modelgun. This is not important, what interests Customs/Police/... is whether this is a firearm according to regulations. You should tell them not about "modelguns", but toys in shape of gun. If in Croatia you have cap toyguns (unrealistic ones for kids), say that modegun is just like cap toy, only higher quality. You can better explain something to people by parallels with something they already know.

Hope that helps a bit :-)

It helps MUCH. This was a very valuable post, which will help others as well. It should be "sticky", with title something like "HOW TO IMPORT MODEL GUNS". Thanks.