Hudson M1A1 Thompson

Post by Claymore

I have had a Hudson M1A1 for some time now but not been able to fire it. Well over the last few days i have had that chance, it is a brand new model so should perform great however it does not.

I also have just bought a an MGC chicago thompson which worked perfectly so i am rather dissapointed that the Hudson does not.

The problem as in many of the models is in the ejection of the round, however i have a feeling that it could be down to the mag. The Hudson D/eagle mag has the rounds popping out of the mag as a round ejects and i think i am getting the same problem with the thompson, not as bad as the round does not eject but i think it jumps out of the mag enough to jam the gun.

Anyone got any experiance of this, is this just down to another hudson mag that is not up to the job. i have had about 6 rounds fire in a burst but that is about the rounds fire no problem it does seem to be down to ejection again.

On this note how many of you have thompsons and how many MGC and which do you prefer, which is more reliable.

Post by kickback

Hi Claymore,

I too own both hudson and mgc thompsons and my money is on the mgc every time.I must admit i'm not experiencing the problem you have with your hudon M1A1 but mine too will not continually fire in full auto without jamming,but the MGC no problems at all it's awsome.

I have altered the extractor and ejector on my hudson and it hasn't cured the problem,perhaps its working as it should !! and we're just spoilt ,being used to the MGC still if you do find the problem and cure please let me know,

GOOD LUCK

Kickback

Post by garyforce

as you know claymore ive got an MGC thompson myself never had any real problems i do know ill need to change the firing pin at sum point as its got quite a bit of corrosion on it (mine is an old model and i dont think she was cleaned as well as she should've bin) but other than that no worrys. seems like MGC are the favorites here.
_________________
- Gary

Post by Claymore

Kickback sorry to hear your hudson causes problems but glad to know its not just mine. I had heard that a lot of ww2 reenactors use the hudson so i thought it would perform great, if i figure out the problem i will let you know.

My MGC is great it just does not fail, i have emptied the drum in one burst and that was fun and i have fired in several short bursts and never a problem.

So for me the MGC has got to be the best of the bunch but i really hope i can get the hudson to work as well, for one thing it cost me more.

Post by Mark

Are you guys using the proper lubrication on the O-rings in the Hudson cartridges? If they are dry they create alot of power robbing,performance reducing, friction. Also, are you using the proper lubricant in the action? Too thick and it slows the action down causing failures to eject etc. The bad thing about Hudson is they really "cheaped out" on their magazine material, as most of the Hudsons that I have looked at had really shoddy magazines and they aren't heat-treated so the feed-lips are easily distorted and they spread causing multiple round jams like you are describing. Have you tried to subsitute a MGC magazine to see if they fit and feed? I have seen many Hudson M1A1's firing quite successfully so, the problem must be something simple..

Post by Claymore

Finally got to put a good amount of rounds through the Hudson the other day as i wanted to test different methods of lube and loading to try to get it firing right.

I have 2 types of piston for the hudson, 1 has a hole through it and 1 does not, also the type with a hole is lighter in weight.

I tried the piston with a hole first 28 rounds in total and complet failure, i had lubed the rounds well enough but there was not enough blowback power to eject the round, well some times they did but no more than a few at a time. OK i thought since there is a whole going through the middle it must be letting too much gas escape and losing power. so i changed to the other type of piston.

This piston is larger and i had a hard job of getting them into the cartridge, so much so that i wondered if they would move freely enough in the cartridge. Anyway another 28 rounds loaded this time still failure, as i feared the pistons were two tight in the round and some did not get pushed onto the detonater pin the ones that did detonated but did not even push the bolt back.

By now i am getting very frustrated as i could not beleive that the gun could be this bad and still sell. Anyway i kept firing and actually got a couple of rounds to fire right, then the bolt jammed.
fortunatly taking the Thompson apart is easy, so i stipped it down and immediatly found the problem. The pin that hold's the extractor in place had come out and jammed the bolt. I then wondered if the pin had been the problem all along as if it was coming out before it would of been catching on the housing and slowing the bolt down.

So i straightened the pin out put it back in and made sure it was secure. Another 28 rounds loaded and this time back to the piston with the hole and got ready to fire. This time i pulled the trigger and was rewarded with a stream of rounds ejecting, then it jammed, got rid of the jam and fired again, another load of rounds fired and another jam, all in all about 4 jams and all other rounds fired great. Well this was a success and i always expect a jam or two anyway.

However when i took the rounds apart to reload them i found 4 cartridges where the piston had actually got stuck in the cap and not been fired forward on detonation, which explains the jam's. So i fired another mag off and same again 5 rounds jammed all the others were successful and fired great and on opening the rounds up i found the same problem where the piston had stuck in to the cap.

So by the end of firing i was happy with the M1A1 again, if the piston in those few rounds had not stuck all rounds would of fired and i have to say the hudson does fire fast and is fun when its working right. I seem to have cured the teething problems i was having which makes me feel a whole lot better, i just hope that it works as well next time i fire it.

Post by Mark

Thanks for the review on the Hudson M1A1 claymore..I still want to but one of these as i have always wanted an M1A1 Thompson and they always seem to be too expensive and rarely show up for sale at a decent affordable price.

It's too bad that you have been having problems with your Hudson M1A1, do you use grease or oil in your cartridges to lube the O-ring? I always use a light grease in my cartridges as it seems to work "just right"

Was it raining or was the weather humid at the time that you fired the caps? moisture affects the caps and causes mis-fires so, be aware that the weather conditions will cause problems too.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Claymore

It was raining, when does it not in the UK. I use a very light machine oil, 3 in 1 it is called dont know if you have that in the states, grease wise i have not seen anything yet that looks like i could use it, but then i have not been to a car parts shop which might be worth a visit. The gun shop i go to only has grease in small tubes and it aint cheap.

I did get the gun working well, as i said the pistons some how got stuck in the cap's so did not get fired forward and that is what stopped all rounds firing, otherwise the 3rd and 4th mag fired great, so i think i am there with it now, at least i am alot happier with how it fires as before i would get 2 rounds jam 1 round jam, you get the picture now i can get a burst of 12-15 then a jam and i know the reason it jams. Sometimes i know that i dont seat the caps well and they are at an angle in the bottom of the round that could of caused the piston to jam in the cap. Anyway i am now looking forward to firing it again now.

Post by Mark

I am not sure that the 3 in one oil is a good lube for the O-rings (we do have this in the U.S. they sell it for sewing machines and the like) and i am not sure if it has the lubricity requirements that are needed to insure that the O-ring slides smoothly in the case.
Also, and more importantly, the possibility that the oil might get into the phosphorus and cause mis-fires and bad caps.
That is why i recomend grease as it stays where you put it unless the temperature rises too much which is very rare.
Also, grease, since it usually stays in place, can rarely get into the cap and cause problems and i think that the grease won't cause problems in long time storage of the cartridges when they are loaded with caps as the grease stays in place and can't seep into the cap. I also use very small amounts of the grease and i apply it with a Q-tip so there is just a slight film of grease in each cartridge.
Here's a picture of the grease that i use

It's good "stuff" and it's use in the Marushin MP40/Uzi cartridges allows these cartridges to work efficiently enough to blow back the heaviest bolt like my MGC MP40's bolt with only one cap and no special prep other than careful assembly.
This grease is not really special but it is firearms grease and is formulated for hi-temperatures etc. I am sure that axle grease can work just as well so, i would check the automotive sources as they have lots of special greases available.

Post by Claymore

Cheers mark. as always what you say makes sense. i shall go a looking for some suitable grease and will let you know the results.

Post by metradio

Might be worth trying 'silicone grease', available from all R/C model car shops, they use it on bearing surfaces, gearboxes etc.. The good thing is it does not attack and rot rubber, nylon, plastic or what have you..
_________________
Mike

Post by Mark

Hi metradio, nice to hear from you again! Yes, i highly recomend silicone products on modelguns as that is what the Japanese use and recomend.

In fact, i should go obtain some myself as there is a R/C shop a few blocks away from my house..

Also, the silicone greases that the R/C guys use and like is pretty much friction free as they are looking for speed gains and as little friction as possible.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Claymore

Played around with this over the last few days and finally got it working pretty good but i had to make the following adjustments.

1. get rid of the hudson piston which has a hole through it and a very short detonator pin on it. First it fits to loosly but more importanly because
of the short detonator on the piston the cap sticks to it on firing and prevents the piston from blowing back so the round fails to eject. Change the hudson inners for MGC and grease the MGC inner.

2. when you get your new bolt (or maybe your old one) you will need to file the inner rim of the bolt face as it is not big enough to accept the round. File and polish untill you can push a round into it and it fits well.

3. the extractor pin comes loose and rubs against the body of the gun which bends the pin. The pin should be cone shaped so make sure you push it in enough to lock it into place or after a few rounds it will come loose and cause a jam, this is the biggest problem on this gun, a blob of glue on the top of the pin may help stop it moving.

4. the extractor spring, mine was bent and not sitting correct. make sure the spring is seated corect.

These are all simple things to do but should tune your M1A1 to fire well, i got 2 full 30 round mags off after all this which was a first for this gun, it really fired well.

One more thing the barrel detonator pin does come loose, with MGC inners this is not such a problem but with Hudson inners it is, as the loose pin makes the loose inner move in the case at an angle which is bad and causes problems, with the MGC this is not the case. You can use gasket sealent on the screw of the detonator to help keep it in place but as i say change the inners and the loose pin is not such a problem.

This worked for me hope it works for you

Post by Mark

Cool claymore! I will have to try your solution on my Hudson..I had to change out the Hudson made pistons from my Sten cartridges to use them in the Madsen as the Hudson pistons refused to work. (as you describe, they stick in their bore.)

The stupid extractor pin and spring really is a pain as the pin "walks" all of the time perhaps a little "super glue" on it will be a temporary fix... Also, the spring might need to be replaced with a stronger spring..

I must get some 30 round magazines......
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Claymore

Ok, the saga of the bloody hudson m1A1 continues. I finally got my new bolt, the 4th one so far, now the bolt is one big problem first it is made of the softest zinc known to man and every jam causes the face of the bolt to dent and chip. 2nd the rim of the bolt face (where the rim of the round sits in and is supported) is suprisingly to small out of the factory and the rim of he round will not fit in so if you fire the gun with the bolt as is it will destrou your bolt face and wont extract the rounds. So you have to wire wool the inside of the rim until the rounds rim fits easily and smoothly.also with the bolt wire wool the thing and take any edges oof that my catch it does not take long


next, the det pin this works loose after only a couple of rounds and this is bad as a loose det pin causes bad extraction, now the only way around this is to use a thread glue, i use locktite lock n seal, the screw for the pin is to small and the shock and vibration loosen the screw real quick so you need to lock the screw in, as for clening well i just keep the screw in plc and use bicard vinigar and water and let the whole chamber soak.

Of course you have to change to inners of the round to mgc and last thing the mag, the lips of the hudson mag are too weak and rounds tend to jump out this causes jams i use a 30 round mag but only put 20 in this keeps the spring pressure down i dont know if you can use real thompson mags or mgc ones i have not tried yet.

Any way with all the above done i finally got the gun to work and when it fires it fire great, pretty fast actuallyand it makes a great sound, the only jams i got were because the mag slipped a round and jammed the round being extracted.

So if i can sort the mmag problem i might of finally got this model firing well, stillneed a steel bolt though.

Post by Mark

Woh, that's not good claymore! I certainally hope that my M1A1 doesn't give me that many problems The detonator does need to be red locktited into place to ensure that it won't back out while firing. But, be aware that if you use red locktite or simlar locking compounds, it may be difficult if not impossible to remove the detonator again with out damaging it!

As for the magazine, try either a real Thompson magazine or have Francky get a Tanaka M1 magazine for you. Or simply try a MGC magazine in it. I I too, ran across the soft feed lips on my Hudson M1A1 magazine so, tried to harden the lips on the Hudson made 20 round made magazine but, it didn't work..

As for the all steel bolt assy, that might be somewhat of a project to build due to its complexities. But, it's worth a "shot" to see if it will work.

Anyway, I will have to try your fixes and see just how well they work for me and then, I will see if there is something that I can contribute to this "project".
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Claymore

One thing i forgot to mention was the rounds themselves, before putting the bolt in the gun i tried an old round and a new round in the face of the bolt to see how both would fit, the new round with a nice smooth edge to the rim fitted fine the old round however with a rim dented and burred did not fit, so this is another thing to consider as the rounds are used, before they get to bad file or wire wool the burrs off the rim and make sure the rounds fit smoothly into the bolt face, if you dont then the jams will happen again and the bolt will get destroyed and you are back to sqaure one.
This is a model thats going to need TLC after every firing

I've been reading through this thread with interest.
I've an MGC 1921 Thompson fitted with a drum mag and that works really well (as everybody's does by the sound of it!)
I've also got a 30rd stick mag and 2 x 20rd mags that I'm sure are from different manufacturers. The locating rails at the rear of the mags differ in thickness so a couple of them will not slide into the receiver at all.
Curiously they'll fit my other (older) MGC Thompson though.
One of the problematic 20rd stick mags is so soft that the feed lips had pushed apart allowing the mag' to empty itself as the spring just pushed the lot out. Pushing the lips back into place helped for awhile but not for long!
Could the Hudson drum mag Claymore has be that soft it deforms the feed lips under spring pressure?
Did you find out if a MGC mag will fit the Hudson M1A1?

One contributor to bolt face damage (I think) is the fact the bolt strikes the empty mag after firing the last round. This was clearly evident when inspecting the first MGC bolt I had to renew as the marking in the bolt matched the shape of the mag and carrier.
Could this last knock be damaging your magazine too and causing feed problems?
This thread is spread out over several months, since then Claymore's posted several times that MGC internals in the Hudson rounds, or just using MGC .45ACP's work far better than when using the Hudson internals.
Has using MGC rounds and the bolt mods now resulted in consistant firing?
As another question, are the Hudson and MGC .45ACP rounds exactly the same dimensionally? Are the rims the same diameter?
I found out the first time I tried my Drum mag that dented rims could make the rounds stand higher in the drum than ones in good shape. This made the lid slightly tight and caused the lot to jam up as they would't feed.
Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Mark

cerwyn,

The Hudson magazines are super soft and they do deform rather easily compared to the real or the MGC magazines. The MGC magazines will fit the Hudson M1A1. You note correctly that the bolt does come in contact with the follower after the last shot but only on the MGC as it does not have the last shot hold open that the Hudson (correctly) features.

I suppose that the magazine followers could be modified to stop lower in the magazine body. That will stop the main problem but create another.

The most "simple" fix for the Hudson problem is a new, all steel bolt assy that will stop the loose extractor pin and the wear problems that the zinc bolt face has. The new bolt idea has some problems: Who will make them and the cost issue.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms