Coming too late to the party? (modelgun retailers in the US)

Hi there,

I apologize in advance if this is the wrong forum to be posting a question like this in, but the search feature seems to not agree with me as I can't seem to find what I'm looking for. I only recently found out about modelguns within the past few weeks (the Clint1, specifically) as I've been doing research for an animation project I've been working on. Unfortunately though, I was recently informed by a staff member (no name was given) at http://www.modelguncollector.co.uk/ that ALL sales/exoprts outside of the UK have been prohibited for the foreseeable future. I'm still trying to figure out what happened in the UK to cause this new (old?) legislative decision, and am saddened that props that would've been useful for my research are now harder to get, but I've still been looking.

Which leads to my question: does anyone here know of a retailer/vendor in the United States that offers these types of items? So far, the only sellers outside of the UK I've been able to find that seem to be reputable are these two:

http://franckys-modelgun.com

http://www.tokyohobby.net/store/product_catalog.php

While the first link is one that is currently advertised here at the forums, I found the latter one by sheer chance, as they seem to be the only airsoft retailer that has a very extensive inventory of modelguns (not just one page of one-off items like many other airsoft websites). That being said though, I would be grateful if anyone could recommend a retailer/seller here in the United States that I could patronize.

Hello lowlight, and welcome to the forum

Despite the fact that the PFC cap firing modelgun industry has declined of late, there is still a healthy interest amongst the enthusiasts spread Worldwide and a reasonably bouyant trade in used models. Some of the best and most sought after models are up to 40 years old by now.

ModelgunCollector.co.uk is a well known and respected company here in the UK. I have bought modelguns from them and I know that many of the members here have dealt with them without any problems at all.
I stand to be corrected here but I believe the problem faced by any Retailer here in the UK now is that Courier companies are refusing to ship Replica Firearms. This is the Couriers' decision which obviously makes things very difficult for dealers or anyone else.
It could be argued that once the parcel is securely boxed and wrapped up, no-one would be any wiser what's inside BUT, Customs Documents for goods shipped outside the EU have to describe the contents reasonably accurately. "Model Toy" or "Model Toy Parts" would be a reasonable description BUT, and this is the problem, if the parcel goes missing and the Couriers are handed an Insurance Claim for loss (or damage), listing contents accurately with values, then they'll simply refuse to pay as the parcel contained prohibited items.

Little wonder in that case that some Dealers are suspending exports from the UK. They are safeguarding themselves as well as the Customer from financial losses should anything go wrong.

I posted this short list some time ago of reputable dealers that we all know well:

Francky's modelgun website:- http://franckys-modelgun.com

SHAZHIB is a forum member and can be reached via Personal Message here

The UK's now has two modelgun retailers:

Kevin at http://www.modelguncollector.co.uk

John at http://www.plugfirecapgunsuk.com/

France is now home for http://www.modelguns-worldwide.com (formerly www.modelguns.co.uk)

I can't say I recall seeing any Retail outlets for Modelguns in the USA, there must be I'm sure so it could be worthwhile checking out Airsoft dealers in case they carry PFC modelguns too.

We do have some USA based members here that buy and sell Modelguns and accessories:

ljerr2 is a good source, well recommended

kharris is another reliable gentleman

Phil Genovese used to sell a lot of models but I'm not sure if he still does now.

The Far East has it's share of dealers, Francky and Shazhib are both excellent sources at very reasonable prices too. You've read the recommendations given on here to Francky, he deserves them all, as does shazhib. Both highly recommemended

http://www.tokyohobby.net/store/product_catalog.php

http://www.wwiiguns.com/store/index.php

http://specialforcesweapons.com/

I'm sure the 3 Japanese based Dealers listed above all fall under the same parent company. If anything, and this is my own opinion, they are rather expensive but do advertise a good selection of modelguns.

Hong Kong is home to http://www.dentrinityshop.com they list modelguns and accessories under the "Collector" link you'll find in "Products"

There will be more no doubt, perhaps some of our members can recommend some too. There's always the "Buy/Sell" category here too of course, it can be a good place to find a bargain.

Thank you Cerwyn, this is all very helpful! As you noted, my original plan was to in fact do business with ModelgunCollector.co.uk, as they and modelguns-worldwide.com offer some of the hard-to-find props I was looking to use for my purposes. I had seen the other two Japanese retailers you listed while I was doing my research (WWII and SpecialForces), but I was a bit leery of both sites as they seemed to be too similar to one another (possibly fraudulent) However, if you can vouch for them, then I'm willing to give them a second look. Thanks most of all though for filling me in on why it is that the UK can no longer export these items; that cleared up a lot of confusion on my part. What I don't get though is why couriers have gotten so uptight about this issue in the UK; I had always assumed I had it worse here in the States, especially in California. Does this UK courier ban apply to the export of modelgun accessories aswell (ie: cartridges, caps, et cetera)?

Here's a copy of www.interparcel.com Prohibited Goods list that's relevant,

Prohibited Items

The following items are strictly prohibited from shipment, and must not be sent through our services under any circumstance. Any of these items being sent may result prosecution, heavy fines and imprisonment.

• Aerosol cans / sprays
  
• Dangerous goods - eg Explosives / Fireworks / Christmas Crackers / Radioactive Materials / Deactivated or Replica Weapons and Munitions / Firearms / Swords / Knives / Axe / Weapons
  

Interparcel use DHL, UPS, FedEx in the main to ship for them. No doubt other Courier services have the same prohibited lists.
Whether or not these Companies imposed Bans following the implementation of the VCRA in 2007 severely restricting sales, trade and imports of Realistic Imitation Firearms within and into the UK or not I'm not sure but it doesn't help perfectly legitimate and legal trade one bit.
As I mentioned earlier, if it is indeed the case that other Couriers are threatening Prosecution and Fines like this one can hardly blame Retailers here for being cautious.

Not having dealt with any of the 3 dealers below, I can't comment as to their reliability

www.tokyohobby.net
www.wwiiguns.com
www.specialforcesweapons.com

but there are mixed reports amongst the forums' pages about wwiiguns.com. There's both good and bad feedback for them.
Checking the specialforcesweapons link today shows all these as being under the same wing

wwiiguns.com Vietnam War Guns – vietnamwarguns.com Special Forces Weapons – specialforcesweapons.com Tokyo Central Hobbies – tokyohobby.net Tokyo Toy Distribution – tokyotoydistribution.com Japan Airsoft – japanairsoftguns.com

I will happily recommend the dealers and private sellers I've dealt with personally, (in no particular order)

ModelgunCollector.co.uk

PlugFireCapgunsUK

Modelguns-Worldwide

Francky @ www.franckys-modelgun.com or on www.Gunbroker.com ( Non-Firing Replicas category)

Shazhib via PM here

DenTrinityshop.com

ljerr2 via PM here or on www.Gunbroker.com

kharris via PM here or again on www.Gunbroker.com same category as above but his username there is Model Gun Collector USA ... there's no link between the two ModelgunCollectors by the way

I check Gunbroker every so often and whilst there are some bargains and reasonably priced modelguns there listed by other private individuals, there are also some that are horrendously overpriced or not described accurately.
Like anything else it's worth holding back, compare prices and enquire here if you'd like as to what reasonable prices should be.

I've dealt with several members here too and all of them are listed in Buyer/Seller Feedback thread here.

I hope that helps you a little.

Thanks for the info, it's very helpful. So, based on the list, accessories are barred from export too, that sucks. What is this "VCRA" business I keep hearing about; did something happen on a socially sweeping level in the UK in 2006/2007 to affect the enactment of these policies? On a side note, I had already spoken with Mr. Harris via Gunbroker prior to posting this thread and he's quite pleasant; thank you for suggesting him. Again, the impetus for me starting this thread was to locate an actual store similar to modelguncollector here in the States (or to verify if one even existed), rather than relying on a series of private sales. But at this point, beggars can't be choosers.

No problem lowlight, the forum's here to help after all

The VCRA ... Violent Crimes Reduction Act, took full effect here in the UK in October 2007. Rather than repeat all details and implications here, take a look at these threads (pull up a chair, make a pot of coffee, there's a lot to read

It's interesting to note that the VCRA allows trade and imports of consumables, accessories and spare parts for Replica guns. There's no problem there. Individuals owning collections of Modelguns or other replicas are still allowed to keep them, use and maintain them with parts and accessories etc.
It's the Trade in complete replicas that are so tightly restricted here.
So it begs the question why do Couriers prohibit shipping Accessories There's no law against it here after all.

Ken Harris has always been very helpful as has ljerr2 They'll certainly look after you if you do deal with them.
We're still none the wiser if there's a US based Retailer though. Unless one of our US members can point you in the right direction it might be a case of Google searching and scrolling through stock lists.

Despite the fact that these Couriers prohibit shipping, it's still relatively easy to order, ship and receive Modelgun accessories, Parts etc as private individuals. Retailers are up against tougher obstacles by the sound of things. Customs will apply relevant laws obviously and may charge taxes and duties but it is possible to keep the hobby going.
Sure we take the chance that parcels aren't lost or damaged, Couriers aren't likely to pay out Insurance are they but it's a chance we may choose to take.

Thanks again for the insightful reply Cerwyn; this information is nice to have on hand here, especially for those like me that have only just found out about the hobby here in the States and are looking for answers. I ended up placing an order with DENTrinity, so I hope that everything works out well in light of some new info I found concerning my own state's penal code on replicas (I'm posting it here for archival purposes in case anyone ever searches this kind of topic):

California Penal Code - Section 12555
(a)Any person who, for commercial purposes, purchases, sells, manufactures, ships, transports, distributes, or receives, by mail order or in any other manner, an imitation firearm except as authorized by this section shall be liable for a civil fine in an action brought by the city attorney or the district attorney of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000) for each violation.

(b)The manufacture, purchase, sale, shipping, transport, distribution, or receipt, by mail or in any other manner, of imitation firearms is authorized if the device is manufactured, purchased, sold, shipped, transported, distributed, or received for any of the following purposes:

(1)Solely for export in interstate or foreign commerce.

(2)Solely for lawful use in theatrical productions, including motion picture, television, and stage productions.

(3)For use in a certified or regulated sporting event or competition.

(4)For use in military or civil defense activities, or ceremonial activities.

(5)For public displays authorized by public or private schools.

(c)As used in this section, "imitation firearm" does not include any of the following:

(1)A nonfiring collector's replica that is historically significant, and is offered for sale in conjunction with a wall plaque or presentation case.

(2)A BB device, as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12001.

(3)A device where the entire exterior surface of the device is white, bright red, bright orange, bright yellow, bright green, bright blue, bright pink, or bright purple, either singly or as the predominant color in combination with other colors in any pattern, as provided by federal regulations governing imitation firearms, or where the entire device is constructed of transparent or translucent materials which permits unmistakable observation of the device's complete contents, as provided by federal regulations governing imitation firearms.

While the provision itself is completely over-reactionary in my opinion (items like these are too hard to obtain casually for a minor without a lot of footwork/prior knowledge), that last section (Sub-section C, paragraph 3) is the most ludicrous as it's written to intentionally stymie any attempt to participate in this type of hobby. I was talking with a colleague of mine who regularly plays airsoft fields here in California and has lived in this state longer than I have (since the seventies), and he wasn't surprised by the law. He stated that, in essence, the alleged ideology behind it by lawmakers was that if you make these types of items less appealing to children (since the lawmakers assume it's only people under 18 interested in these types of items), they in turn will grow up to dislike guns and ultimately never invest in the purchase of a real firearm.

Of course, as any rational human being can surmise (which seem to be in short supply in California these days), specious reasoning like that is no different than thinking that if one were to surround a very unintelligent child in a room made of books on all types of subjects, that the child would somehow become "smarter" by way of osmosis. But, I digress. My colleague insisted that despite the extravagant law, he's personally never seen it enforced as of today in the area we live, and neither have his friends that still order airsoft items from overseas. So, I'll hope for the best with this DENTrinity order, but expect the worse. Thanks again for all of the useful info!

---

I have had replica guns seized by customs coming into the US through San Francisco customs, proving they were for theatrical use, was not difficult and after a wait the replicas were delivered, but it took a few telephone calls and faxes.

I have also received them from international sellers with no issues at all.

Try Ebay and look for US sellers there are a couple who regularly sell from CA.
Search "MGC replica"

Also Gunbroker.com

JJ.

pitfighter wrote:

Try Ebay and look for US sellers there are a couple who regularly sell from CA.
Search "MGC replica"

Also Gunbroker.com

JJ.

Thanks, PitFighter. Yes, I've already looked at, and subsequently found, a few deals on both of the sites that you've mentioned. It's just a shame that it feels more like looking for "table scraps" (auction sites with severely limited choices and exorbitant prices) rather than a "full meal" (dedicated stores with a large selection and custom-made items); figuratively speaking, of course. I know beggars can't be choosers, but that's how it feels for me right now as I vent my frustration. Like I said, I'm still waiting for a reply back from DENTrinity on my order request (I'm a bit worried as some of the information on their order site seems to be a year old; the "Product" link also doesn't work as I had to do manual searches of the inventory they have online), and I'll obviously feel much better if everything works out in the end.

Hi Cerwyn,

Do you think in time that model guns will cease in a few few years?

denisonsmock wrote:

Hi Cerwyn,

Do you think in time that model guns will cease in a few few years?

Anything could happen couldn't it? Tightening legislation is very likely to have an impact. Lowlight's copy of California's regulations make our UK Violent Crimes Reduction Act look almost lenient. I notice there is no mention of Re-enactment events. The nearest reference is
(5)For public displays authorized by public or private schools
I'm not quite sure what sort of schools would hold Public or Private displays needing Replica Weapons though
We too have the bright colours exempion clause here. This has been used to good effect by Airsoft sites and Retailers by using so called "2-tone" replicas. More than half the gun's surface is painted bright blue or green but the remainder can be left black or Grey. Sounds like California insist on the entire surface being a mix of garish bright colours which'll make them look like children's water pistols.

I certainly hope that Modelguns don't come to an end. Thanks to the efforts of Living History organisations, Groups and the Airsoft sites organisations here in the UK, provisions were made and included in 2007s VCRA bill for certain individuals to continue trade and imports.

It's unfortunate that shipping companies are clamping down on carrying replicas too but at least they aren't demanding that boxes be opened for inspection before they accept them.

California's anti pollution legislation back in the earlymid 1980s caused the death of 2-stroke engined motorcycles. They were such a huge consumer for motorcycles that their ban on 2-strokes led directly to the Japanese manufacturers abandoning further development of 2-stroke engines in anything over 175cc.
I doubt that California is a huge consumer of modelguns, so they won't have such a damaging effect. Mind you, isn't it easier to obtain a real firearm over there ?

On a more cheerful note, I received a parcel from DenTrinity this week. It's only the first or second time I've used them and can report no problems. Customs here charged VAT purchase tax on the Invoice but that's becoming the norm nowadays.

Cerwyn wrote:

(5)For public displays authorized by public or private schools
I'm not quite sure what sort of schools would hold Public or Private displays needing Replica Weapons though

That got me puzzled, too. Maybe this is for "FORBIDDEN ITEMS" displays to teach children what they should report to Law Officers when they see it? :-/

Quote :

It's unfortunate that shipping companies are clamping down on carrying replicas too but at least they aren't demanding that boxes be opened for inspection before they accept them.

It think troubles with shipping stem largely from liability issues. If Post is required to forbid shipping weapons, and they cannot distinguish between real weapons and toys such as modelguns, it is easier to just ban everything that looks like a weapon, including "imitation firearms". Otherwise someone could expect Post to employ people to make detailed screening, similar to what Border Guard/Customs do - but only for international packages.
Throwing the baby out with bath-water, I guess...

Quote :

California's anti pollution legislation back in the earlymid 1980s caused the death of 2-stroke engined motorcycles. They were such a huge consumer for motorcycles that their ban on 2-strokes led directly to the Japanese manufacturers abandoning further development of 2-stroke engines in anything over 175cc.

About 5 years ago I read trade magazines about snowmobiles (as I did some snowmobiling at the time). I remember that they originally used 2-stroke engines, apparently polluting a lot. After all "green" discussions in 1990s a lot of research went towards 4-strokes, but 2-strokes were being improved too. Modern ones were nothing like the older - based on emmissions you could not really discriminate. Of course in meantime 4-strokes were improved, too.
It's hard to say that such legislation improved technology as an intended outcome, but it did contribute to progress, shifting research in other direction.
With firearms it's more all-or-nothing approach, where technology is not directed to one type of firearms, but they are all banned altogether - including anything in shape of a firearm :-/

DenTrinity is a good shop. I bought a bunch of airsoft items from them, always satisfied :-)

Cerwyn & Smootik, thanks for the replies on this subject; very nice to get different perspectives on the matter.

smootik wrote:

Cerwyn wrote:

(5)For public displays authorized by public or private schools
I'm not quite sure what sort of schools would hold Public or Private displays needing Replica Weapons though

That got me puzzled, too. Maybe this is for "FORBIDDEN ITEMS" displays to teach children what they should report to Law Officers when they see it? :-/

Yes, that's exactly what it means, but it never actually happens as far as I know.

smootik wrote:

Cerwyn wrote:

It's unfortunate that shipping companies are clamping down on carrying replicas too but at least they aren't demanding that boxes be opened for inspection before they accept them.

It think troubles with shipping stem largely from liability issues. If Post is required to forbid shipping weapons, and they cannot distinguish between real weapons and toys such as modelguns, it is easier to just ban everything that looks like a weapon, including "imitation firearms". Otherwise someone could expect Post to employ people to make detailed screening, similar to what Border Guard/Customs do - but only for international packages.
Throwing the baby out with bath-water, I guess...

Right again. I've grown to learn that a "least privilege" policy seems to be the easiest solution when it comes to politics in general, especially social policy here in this particular state.

Cerwyn wrote:

California's anti pollution legislation back in the earlymid 1980s caused the death of 2-stroke engined motorcycles. They were such a huge consumer for motorcycles that their ban on 2-strokes led directly to the Japanese manufacturers abandoning further development of 2-stroke engines in anything over 175cc.

Before I respond to that, I really should take a moment to stress here for fellow members that also live here in California that I'm not trying to outright bash it or it's people in earnest. I simply can't understand how and why many of the policies that have come about have: I often joke to myself that I feel like I'm stuck in an episode of South Park when it comes to the wacky ideas folks here come up with (To be fair, I'm from New York, so I am a bit biased). For instance, our governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (yes, I know...sigh) just last week thankfully vetoed a behaviour-controlling bill that sought to outlaw smoking in an open air public park (READ HERE). While I'm not a smoker, I don't like the idea of anyone having their individual rights and freedoms to legal vices taken from them just because someone else thinks it's not good for them. At the very least, it's no better than telling a smoker to quit for someone other than themselves, as that smoker will most likely be driven to frustration if their not ready to quit, or even want to quit.

Another oddball policy that just came up a few weeks ago was an initiative by leaders of California's Public Colleges sought to actually "lower" the standards required for entry into post-secondary schools for the sole reason that they claim employers want to see more "highly educated people with college degrees in the workforce". Take a moment to read that quoted sentence...okay, I'll point out the irony for anyone that might've missed it: the entire initiative is a contradiction in concept. Student "A" gets into UCLA on her intelligence and determination with no assistance while Student "B", if this new initiative passes, barely gets in with lowered requirements. As an employer, if I honestly want the "best and brightest candidate" to work for me, I wouldn't pick "B" I'd pick "A". But again, I'm getting off the topic here.

The point I'm trying to make is that this state is rife with some wackadoodle ideas. Granted, there have been a few good ideas to come through this state, but to be fair, even a blind pig can find mud if it tries hard enough.

smootik wrote:

DenTrinity is a good shop. I bought a bunch of airsoft items from them, always satisfied :-)

That's good to know. Unfortunately, I still haven't heard anything back from them for the last 24 hours of submitting my order request through their website. How long does it usually take for them to respond to order requests?

lowlight wrote:

smootik wrote:

DenTrinity is a good shop. I bought a bunch of airsoft items from them, always satisfied :-)

That's good to know. Unfortunately, I still haven't heard anything back from them for the last 24 hours of submitting my order request through their website. How long does it usually take for them to respond to order requests?

They say "up to 48 hours" and I usually had a reply on the second (not next) day after submitting an order. Sometimes it stretched to three days when timezones come into play - when I put order on HK evening and by the time I can read answer it takes more than 48 hours. This is all working days, holidays/weekends do not count.

As for politics - I think we could all go for hours and hours...

Oh yes, as one regular contributor said on here once, it's best to avoid Politics and Religion in discussions. If ever there was a minefield to step into...

DenTrinity replied to my order on the 2nd day confirming stocks and quoting shipping costs. They're in Hong Kong which is more than a few time-zones difference to here.
They asked for Payment if I was happy to proceed and sent 2 further e-mails confirming Passed to Dispatch and Shipped with a Tracking Number.
Not bad going really.
UK Customs offices at the Airport held onto the package longer than DenTrinity did.

Cerwyn wrote:

Oh yes, as one regular contributor said on here once, it's best to avoid Politics and Religion in discussions. If ever there was a minefield to step into...

DenTrinity replied to my order on the 2nd day confirming stocks and quoting shipping costs. They're in Hong Kong which is more than a few time-zones difference to here.
They asked for Payment if I was happy to proceed and sent 2 further e-mails confirming Passed to Dispatch and Shipped with a Tracking Number.
Not bad going really.
UK Customs offices at the Airport held onto the package longer than DenTrinity did.

No problem (politics), I'll keep that in mind from now on, as the last thing I want to do is cause a row. I'll keep watching my inbox for a reply from DENTrinity then. Thanks to you and Smootik for the reassurance.

lowlight wrote:

No problem (politics), I'll keep that in mind from now on, as the last thing I want to do is cause a row. I'll keep watching my inbox for a reply from DENTrinity then. Thanks to you and Smootik for the reassurance.

No problem lowlight, I think we can safely leave Politics and crazy laws for stand-up comedians to tear apart while we enjoy our unique hobby

If you do happen to find an USA based retailer, please give us a heads' up as there are many many US resident members here.

Well, shortly after Cerwyn's post, I received my quote confirmation back from DENTrinity, and paid for the items the day after that (Thursday). Now it's time for the long, and anxiety-laden, "waiting game" to really begin. Still haven't found anyone else here retailer-wise in the US, as the term "modelgun" and "replica gun" seem to get used interchangeably; I keep getting dealers that sell mainly "blank firing" replicas. What's more, I've also found that many of these same retailers, and even a few private sellers through sites like Gunbroker, will sometimes use the term "cap gun" and "blank gun" interchangeably as well; pretty confusing.

However, I did come across another HK based retailer called "Guns-N-Guys". Although they deal mainly in Airsoft items, their modelgun selection is pretty extensive (not as large as Francky's or DEN's though). Unfortunately, their turnaround time on email replies seems to be a bit longer than that of DENTrinity, as it took them about 5 days to reply to a price/stock quote query I sent them (they were selling a few Marushin MI6 kits at a cheaper price point than DENTrinity).

Wow, okay I am thoroughly surprised: my items arrived completely fine from DENTrinity. In fact, they arrived very fast, as of this post actually; it was officially handled by UPS on Friday. What's more, DENTrinity took it upon themselves to not only add the "reversible" cosmetic adjustments to comply with US Customs, but they also included a three page printed declaration explaining in clear detail to Customs what the item was and why it was legal for me to receive it into this country; Bravo! Of course. it does make me wonder how and when Californian officials actually get involved in enforcing that penal code that I cited earlier in this thread; does anyone actually enforce it other than sellers themselves? Anyway, I guess I'll be doing my business with DENTrinity from here on out . Now to figure out how to put the darn XM177E2 together, hehe (I'll have to review the pictorial guides here at the forums for more guidance). Thanks again for the info about this hobby, guys!

It's always good to read about a very happy ending Everything has obviously gone perfectly with your order and Den Trinity have looked after you well.
Excellent news

There is a mound of information here regarding building and fine tuning Marushin's XM177 and M16.
It'll take awhile to find it all, hopefully most of it's stored under https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/marushin-m16-xm177-series-modelguns-f20/ but if there's anything you need help with, please don't hesitate to ask