New to Model Guns Please Help Me Out

Ok so i just purchased two model guns and i would like more info on them..

First Gun i have is a "Suzuki Beretta M92 SB".. what i dont understand is if i am loading my bullets correctly or if my caps are junk.. The gun came from a collection which is pretty old and dont look to have been used in the past 6 years.. It came with a Yellow box of 7mm M.G. Caps . i am not sure what they are suppose to do. When i load my bullets they dont really make noise or smoke and barely blow back the gun. Are they dead? what kind of caps can i place in these bullets? will this gun actually make noise and smoke? or is it a old version or something that just blows back? i wanna simulate the gun properly with sparks , noise , smoke .. ect.. I also just took the slide off and sprayed the gun down with wd40 and wiped it down to lube it up.


Second gun is a MGC Beretta 1934 .. I would like to find proper Bullets and caps for this gun.

The Beretta that I had doesn't have blowback cartridges as far as I know, just the solid brass ones shown here.

I think lampwick is correct on the 1934 but some of the non blowback had the abilty of firing a cap but no blowback. The cap would fit in the end of the nose of the bullet and would hit the detpin in the barrel and fire but as the cap was on the outside no pressure to blow the slide back.
As for the 92, well first thing you have a rare model there as not many suzuki model 92's are around, i dont know if they work on marushin or mgc rounds the one you show in the pics is a marushin type and if you look on the caps - rounds section of this forum you will see how to load but basically the plug (the thick washer type disc with a hole) is put in the case head with the concave part facing up, the cap then goes into the case head with the powder side facing out. The bottom screw part with the pin sticking up then screws on and the pin in that is what ignites the cap. you will also need to check your barrel and make sure the det pin ( a metal rod in the barrel) is in there (they are normally removable for cleaning) this rod is what pushed the plug down through the round and onto the pin that ingnited the cap and hey presto gun fires and hpefullky blows back, withough the det pin it wont work.
if it takes mgc 9mm rounds you may have a problem as they are damn hard to get these days but not impossible.

Cerwyn wrote:

Hi weno,

Just to add to claymore's post, the loading guide for Marushin style cartridges as used in your Suzuki M9 will be here:

For these models to work properly, cartridges must be spotlessly clean inside and the cap must be dry. When loading, lubricating the side of the cap will allow it to slide as intended.

If the caps you've had with the gun have been kept dry and well away from moisture there's no reason why they shouldn't work. It's not uncommon though for caps to absorb some moisture during storage so they may be no use now. Fortunately, caps are easy to buy from:

www.plugfirecapgunsuk.com

www.mg-props.co.uk

Please keep us informed how you get on

Ok my gun DOES fire but doesnt seem to be what it should.. or atleast i dont think so.. in some of the videos of pfc guns firing you hear a "gunshot" my gun is silent.. and sometimes it does make a TINY bang .. sometimes it smokes.. what SHOULD it do? i get jamming and whatnot.. if my yellow box of caps where new would i get a bang and smoke? can i use the sparking caps on my gun?

As for my 1934.. it has a firing pin in the rear slide and a det pin in the barrel.. where can i atleast get the shells? i am considering machining my own shells for this if i cant find any.. i am also close to machining a bunch of shells for my beretta with a copper top unless they sell some copper head shells that will still function correctly..  Benefits of owning my own prop company i machine my own stupid side projects...

Also while looking at mg props website i see marushin 7mm caps and mg caps which i have, what kind should i use? can i use "flame caps" also? and whats "prop powder"

Cerwyn wrote:

Hi weno,

Usually, the most common cause of poor firing performance (assuming caps are good), is cartridges being dirty, corroded, incorrectly loaded.
Also, the gun itself must be clean, properly lubricated and the barrel and Detonator Pin must be clean.
Get the cartridges right, and you should be about there.

You can use 7mm caps from MG, Marushin and Real Flame without any problems.
Sparking caps are the Marushin and Real Flame type

From your description, I'd say your cartridges, barrel and Det.Pin (in the barrel) need a good clean.
When you get a fairly quiet firing sound, does your Suzuki blowback the slide and eject the fired round?

Yes i get the gun to blow back... sometimes it gives a little kick not enough to eject.. sometimes they fly out.. but i dont ever get ANY noise to simulate a gunfire... not sure if they are suppose to? i would assume you would here a bang? is there a manual for this gun so i can properly take it apart and clean it? i took the slide off and sprayed the rails and spring with wd40 and then wiped off excess dirt and lube.. how do i clean det pin?

Cerwyn wrote:

The fact you are getting some blowback is encouraging. I'm almost positive now you need to clean your cartridges thoroughly and re-load ensuring they're properly lubricated.

You should hear some noise as the gun fires. Check the cap after firing. Does it have a hole blown through it's centre?
If not, then it's possible the pin inside the cartridge is not punching through the cap as it strikes and ignites the charge. This will reduce noise considerably.
Note though that caps are nowhere near as loud as real or blank fire guns...

I'm not certain which "system" of operation and build Suzuki used on the Beretta M9. Is it a Centre Fire or Side Fire type? (If the firing block in the slide has a centre fire pin then it'll be Centre fire)

Reassemble everything and lightly lubricate the gun's sliding surfaces with a little silicone oil (plastic guns) or light machine oil, 3in1 for example, or gun oil (metal guns)

Ok i know for a FACT my caps dont have a hole punched through the center.. as for center or side fire exactly what should be where? on my barrel i have a center pin.. i can take any pics you need..

also is wd40 a no no on these? as thats what i have here now..

The propellant mixed with WD40 can damage ABS and HWABS plastics over time so a better option is Silicone Oil in dropper bottles.

The Pin in the barrel is the Detonator Pin.

Check the firing block in the Slide, look at the front of the bolt face, does it have a pin in it's centre that resembles a real gun's firing pin that'd strike a primer?
If it does, it's a Centre Fire type 

OK, if the cap isn't being punctured, noise levels from firing will be reduced. Before anything else, try cleaning and reloading your cartridges with the caps you have. Make sure inside the cartridges are spotless.
Fire the gun, if there isn't an improvement in noise levels, check each cartridge. Don't strip them down, just check to see if the dished washer has been pushed up tight against the nose of the "bullet". If it is, then the cartridge is performing as it should as far as blowback is concerned.
If not, then the cap is sticking in the bore of the cartridge. Try cleaning the bore again and apply a little more silicone grease to the cap edges.

Once the gun is cycling properly, we can look at further reasons and cures for the caps not being punctured.

Cerwyn wrote:

The propellant mixed with WD40 can damage ABS and HWABS plastics over time so a better option is Silicone Oil in dropper bottles.

The Pin in the barrel is the Detonator Pin.

Check the firing block in the Slide, look at the front of the bolt face, does it have a pin in it's centre that resembles a real gun's firing pin that'd strike a primer?
If it does, it's a Centre Fire type 

Once the gun is cycling properly, we can look at further reasons and cures for the caps not being punctured.

Ok i dont have a "firing pin" so i assume side firing.. as for noise i checked one bullet and that convex piece goes right to the tip of the bullet.. i just tried lubing all of it and putting a cap in.. when i did i tried putting the shell right into the barrel and slowly by hand moving the slide foward to shoot and it wouldnt close completely.. i tried forcing it and it went off and made a nice sound! but when i tried a second time with same bullet and loading a new cap i got it to completely close and pulled trigger and it just recoiled the round.. no noise.... ill take off the slide now to remove barrel

ok so i took the pin out of the barrel and cleaned it.. and this gun is SUPER clean inside .. i dont believe it was ever fired by anyone but me... anyways.. i loaded up 3 bullets and i put them in mag and shot them.. the first was AMAZING... Loud bang, some sort of spark or fire out of ejection port and smoke down barrel the other two just recoiled out like i have been having..

Cerwyn wrote:

Was the first cap punctured? What about the other two?

Ok first cap was punctured.. i tried again and just recoil nothing else again.. they wherent punctured either.. this is kind of depressing.. i want these to work lol..

any good methods to really clean these bullets? i see people use a sonic cleaner whats the other item used ? some sort of a polisher?

Cerwyn wrote:

These models can get frustrating I know, but worth sticking to it   

Certainly the best way of cleaning is an Ultrasonic Cleaner but hot soapy water and a small diameter scrubbing brush will do fine if you're not looking at large quantities of cartridges.
The other machine is a Polisher intended for polishing real ammunition brass cases when reloading. I find both machines perfect for modelgun cartridges when I'm cleaning 30 - 100 at a time.

So, the first round fires perfectly every time, but the following two don't? Is the Detonator Pin secure in the barrel?

Well No.... the first round fired nice once.. still having issues.. very rarely will one shoot really nice.. i think it was a fluke lol.. i have 16 cases so its not alot but its a hassle since i cant get a reward at this now.. if i had one fire for sure everytime i would be happy   ... i am using " Permatex white lithium grease" is that a good one? all i have here now is that a can of wd40 and a alcohol bottle.. and a cleaning rod to a blank gun..

Just a last check to do, take of the bottoms of the carts, and check that the pin in the bottoms are all the same length, I have seen this pin length vary, find the longest, and the shortest and test fire those two carts, bet the longest pin fires the loudest
NOTE even a .2 mm difference matters!

JohnnyV wrote:

Just a last check to do, take of the bottoms of the carts, and check that the pin in the bottoms are all the same length, I have seen this pin length vary, find the longest, and the shortest and test fire those two carts, bet the longest pin fires the loudest
NOTE even a .2 mm difference matters!

honestly just tried and nope.. all same    .. im running low on caps now and the damn thing isnt firing good... what if i move the det pin in the barrel a bit closer to the body?

so i was curious and had a few red caps.. i ended up doing this and it shoots everytime...





i tried it with empty red caps and with full red caps.. the full makes a big bang and the empty ones just make a normal bang..and the normal 7mm caps in the bullets are getting punctured everytime.. idk why this red cap makes a difference.. obviously its not suppose to be in the bullet..

The empty red cap is causing the same effect as the det pin in barrel being longer (or conversly the pin in cart being longer) in effect it would seen that the problem with the model is the det pin in the barrel is a tad to short, if you can find a effective way to bring it back a bit this should sort your problem.
If you can try maching up a exact copy of the current det pin but a bit longer, NOTE too long and the cart will fire when slide shuts
Other way would be to machine up some thicker brass inners for the carts...
Looks like your on the brink of success!
Well done for trying!

JohnnyV wrote:

The empty red cap is causing the same effect as the det pin in barrel being longer (or conversly the pin in cart being longer) in effect it would seen that the problem with the model is the det pin in the barrel is a tad to short, if you can find a effective way to bring it back a bit this should sort your problem.
If you can try maching up a exact copy of the current det pin but a bit longer, NOTE too long and the cart will fire when slide shuts
Other way would be to machine up some thicker brass inners for the carts...
Looks like your on the brink of success!
Well done for trying!

So apparently with me doing this and my math.. i need 0.80mm more on my det pin.. i find this odd..
here is the new pin i modeled.. guess i will have to machine it.. i really dont want to tho. i feel it should work if it was made with this pin why isnt it working with this pin?



Also i was looking at my slide and when the hammer drops it does push a piece foward in the center and the side.. here are two pics of that also..

Here at rest


Now pressed in

Lots of reasons why they often do not quite work, ( the key thing is expectations, I would guess the vids you have seen have the mic gain turned up high... ), In japan modelguns are seen as things to LOOK like gun for display, or if you want to fire them then it is normal to have to mod, fiddle, improve, its part of the hobby... seems odd to the west where we just want things to work no fuss, but thats they way it is there. I understand that you get out of these things what you put in, it is more of a hobby than a tool for firing.
Some guns do just work out of the box yes, but its not at all uncommon to have to mod/fix them.

I do not know where you got yours/ the history, but another simple thing going on may be that it has been left cocked or with the slide racked for display and this over time will compress the hammer spring and weaken it, the symptoms you have could be improved with stronger hammer spring as well.... but the more you adjust the more chance of breakage... its a fine line..

For me the greatest pleasure come from improving a model to the point where its as good as I can get it.
Another thing you can do it to try double capping (5mm cap inside the 7mm cap) BUT WARNING:
The slide may not take the extra force.... again its a fine line, also hammer spring may not be strong enough to fire two caps...

Modelguns are highly addictive due to the fiddle factor..

A  word that can be sort of applied to modelguns is KAIZEN...........

well my gun has sat in its box for plenty of years i am told.. pretty much i am the first person to fire it.. which it did seem like as it was spotless...are the caps suppose to be stiff? my caps seem a bit "rubbery" maybe they are too old ? when it fires it does indent the cap but doesnt puncture.. that why i ask are they suppose to be stiff.. if i load the gun up then whip the gun in my hands while firing it ; it does make the bang and everything .. i guess my whipping gives it a extra "umf" .. i would assume its normal to fire with no noise but once in a while i got the nice bang i like.. so that has to be the way it fires..

I am going to be ordering caps here soon can someone tell me what kind i should buy? is there a difference in the mg caps and the marushin caps? also will sparking caps work in my gun?