Help Needed Identifying These Old Model Pistols

Post by MadMike

I got two full metal dummy only modelguns from an old WW II display. They do not have a firing pin and the barrel is solid, the grips are plastic.

The Luger weighs 805 g, the P-38 840 g. The Luger has no markings at all. The strange thing is that there is a small metal bar with "SAFE" on it coming up when the safety is on (see pictures).







The P-38 has markings on the left slide: "P38" - "nmg 42" - "1974". Magazine is stamped "P.38 9 mm" and could be a real one.







I do not know anything about them. I do not have rounds or instructions, only the guns and magazines. The seller says they are 1970s models made by MGC Japan, but I do not know. The overall impression is good, sturdy and detailed.

Post by Doc

Hi Madmike,

Those are the same all metal replicas that were sold in the UK in the 80s by "Scalemead/replica models" They were never advertised as modelguns but dummy replicas and I was never sure of the proper manufacturer.
In fact the Luger was the first gun I ever owned (my parents bought it for me when I was about 13 )
They used to have all solid brass cartridges with a tiny hole in the top (too small for caps)
The Luger has a partcular weak point on the right part of the toggle arm.

Quite cool to see those again....thanks

DOC
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by MadMike

Hi Doc!

Thanks for that. I have never seen them before here in Germany where blank pistols are very common.
Well, your parents should have known where it will end buying you a Luger replica ...

Greetings,
MadMike

Post by Mark

Hi MadMike,

These are MGC modelguns that where made after 1972 and they where both intended to be display only models. These where sold by the "Collectors armory" in the U.S. for many years and I have had at least 3 of the MGC Lugers over the years. Denix has made really bad copies of the MGC original Lugers for some time and they are cast really poorly and have lots of detail short cuts.

These where sold with out the solid brass cartridges and the boxes that they where packaged in where plain white with black silhouettes of the various other versions of the same model on the top/sides (standard/artillery etc. for the Luger)and, the inner foam padding was somewhat thin. The dummy brass cartridges where an option as well as the holsters etc.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by MadMike

Thank you very much. So the seller was right. I am quite sure that these are not Denix copies, they are too good detailed.

Post by Mark

Oh ya, you can definately tell the Denix "replicas" from the Japanese modelguns/display models any day..The castings are at best...crude..And the detail is bad I.E. non working features bolts etc....

The Denix crap is just junk that is marginally good for displaying on your walls at home. If anyone breaks in to your house and steals them you won't be too sad eh?
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Doc

Well I must have already had an interest in that area for me to want a Luger at 13.
Yep the detail on the Luger was fab and it stripped like the real deal if I remember correctly .
It even had a spring loaded (sort of) firing pin that was released upon the last pull of the trigger .
I think a 13 years old vigorous usage managed to break it in the end ,
You know I have no idea what happened to it .
(Probably got chucked when I brought my (now wife) home for the first time .
Thats certainly where all my 2000ADs and Cyborg toys went .............
Also where most of my LS collection went .

God the things we do to impress girls.

DOC
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Mark

Hey Doc, I still have most of my LS models! Yes, the old zinc MGC Luger is a very detailed model that I really liked until I decided that all of my modelguns had to fire and not just be static displays. So, I ended up selling all of my non-functional models (it also helps to limit my collection )

I really would like to buy replacement LS kits for my missing models but, they are few and far between.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Doc

Hi Mark ,

one of my fav LS guns was the Colt 1911 that I did as a sectional model,
It took me ages but in the end looked the dogs........
I did one of the P38s too but that never looked as good.

I`ll dig out some photos of my old collection and get them viewable.

They did a few grenades as well but I seem to think they were not as detailed (i.e no innards)

DOC

p.s still got the girl ......I wonder if I could have her sectioned ....ha
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by MadMike

I managed to take down the P.38, and surprise, it does have a firing pin/detonator looking very similar to the ones in my newer Marushin pistols.. It is clean and indicates the gun was never fired.

Post by Mark



Are you going to try the Marushin cartridges in it? That would be great if they work in it..But, somehow I doubt it as I don't think that these pistols where intended to fire caps/blowback. Its too bad that they didn't blowback as they would be far more entertaining.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Mark

Doc, I too liked the LS .45! I had both the Government and the Commander versions. While they where fun to put together and interesting to play with, they where still models that lacked the proper details like the frame section just over the trigger looked strange as it was too "fat" and if they where assembled with any glue other that what LS provided (one small tube of ABS specific glue) the model would soon fall apart. I still enjoyed the LS models anyway even if they still fell apart...
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by MadMike

Not sure what I am going to do. Maybe I will test newer Marushin carts, but the 9 mm carts from my Marushin P.38 do not fit well, the extractor fails to grap the cart.

The Luger does have a small pin in the center of the "chamber" too, but this looks shorter than the (full size) pin in the P.38. Maybe this pin is just for centering the rounds. I don´t know.

I´ll stop for today before I start messing around and breaking things.

Post by Mark

These all zinc models are hard to break as they where over built. Although, the disassembly levers can be broken fairly easily. I have always been careful with all of my modelguns over the years and I rarely break anything on them (with the exception of the KSC M93R firing pin )
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by HIGUsan

Hi MadMike,
I think your P08 is made by MGC but P38 is probably made by Marushin, if it is made in Japan.
It has live extractor though looks similar Nakata P38.

Post by MadMike

Hi HIGUsan!

Nice to hear from you again! Thank you very much for that. I am not sure if those models were any good when I bought them, but I think they are not too bad after all.

I will try to take detailed pictures soon.

Greetings

Madmike

Post by MadMike

HIGUsan sent me the scan of the manual of the P08, it is definitly an early MGC model. You can see the first page here:



I still do not know if it was a dummy only model.

Thank you very much, HIGUsan!

Last edited by MadMike on Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

Post by Mark

I think that every all metal MGC Luger is a non-blowback "dummy model" These MGC Lugers where sold for many years here and I have never observed any that have the blowback feature.

I consider all of the zinc Lugers to be display only dummys.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by richard jones

I remember years ago buying a good few of those LS kits and had hours of enjoyment assembling them and firing them.Had an m16a1,ak47,colt1911,luger,beretta 92f and a 8inch dirty harry magnum.
Still have the 92f and magnum as wallhangers.Its not long ago that i threw out their boxes and instructions.

They had a cheap m203 kit available as well which i now regret not buying.

Post by HIGUsan

Hi Mark and MadMike,
Almost all old metal modelguns can use paper caps but not blowback except blowback model.
We call that type automatic modelgun "standard type", means can use caps, not blowback.
Of course, MGC's metal P08 can use paper caps and operate by hand, but I don't know about exported model.
If there is firing pin in chamber and work firing block, it can fire.

They say MGC had a plan to make metal P08 blowback model, but it could not realize by toy gun regulation in 1971.
MGC made plastic P08 blowback after years.
MGC had sold steel optional parts for metal P08 long time, cupling link, recoil lever, firing block and extractor.
They say those parts were developed for metal P08 blowback.

Post by MadMike

Hello HIGUsan!

Thank you very much for that! The P08 has a firing pin, but it is rather small compared to the detonators in the later modelguns. Thank you for the scan of the manual, that will help taking the Luger apart!

Post by Mark



Hi HIGUsan!

Thanks again for the information on the all metal hand(model)guns! I had the Kokusai P38 "Gestapo" that was a "standard type" I think that I still have some solid brass cartridges for it. It has the same small pin in the barrel just like the pin in your P38 MadMike..

The prototype blowback all metal MGC Luger sounds fascinating! I wish that they had made a few of them just to see...

The all plastic MGC Luger has several details that are incorrect but, they still seem to work!
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by HIGUsan

Hi Mark,
Not only handguns, Nakata sold metal MP40 standard type.
MGC sold metal M16 standard type long time. It was 5000 yen cheaper than blowback M16 and lots of children bought it.
MGC sold MP40 and Thompson standard type in 1977 before 2nd toy gun regulation.

Post by Mark

HIGUsan wrote:

MGC sold MP40 and Thompson standard type in 1977 before 2nd toy gun regulation.

Ah, a nice piece of the modelgun history puzzle! I wasn't aware that MGC sold any standard MP40's or Thompsons in Japan. I was under the impression that all of the dummy "standard" models where meant for export only..
Thanks HIGUsan!

Post by MadMike

Still not sure about the origin of the P.38 - the markings look like a CMC, but the mechanism looks more like a Nakata made P38. Here are more pics, maybe someone can help: