Model Gun Law

Post by 8ace April 23, 2007

I have just found this post by Doc and a cold shiver went down my back

Quote :

Now I`m no Lawyer but do have some insight into these things so I think its worth pointing out some things regarding UK law and replica guns.
The UK Governments view is that it is YOUR responsibility to understand and stay within the laws of this country.
Just because the Law in the UK changes does not mean the Government has to privately inform everyone so they don`t fall foul.
To this end here are a few basic guidelines and If anyone has any further input they are more than welcome to join in.
Although Marks site is modelgun based there will no doubt be some discussion of conventional blank firers.
So we`ll start here :
Blank firing handguns :
Blank firing handguns for the most part are now unable to be purchased new within the UK. There are a few (glock 17 etc.) that have been passed as within government guidelines.
Generally speaking ANY blank firing pistol purchased from outside the UK (whether new or used) will be illegal in the UK.
Prime examples are ALL 9mm PAK semi autos.
Also 8mm blank models with threaded barrels (to accept flares) are illegal.
.22 (6mm) Derringers are illegal, this is because they were found to be the easiest pistol to convert to fire live rounds.
I`m not 100% but I also think this law is retrospective meaning even if you bought a derringer 20 years ago in the UK it will most likely still be illegal.
The term "easily convertible without the use of specialist equipment" is one the police use as a benchmark for trying to prosecute someone.
"specialist equipment" is things like lathes and milling machines so think about having a legitimate reason for having these OTHER than making modelgun parts .
Chances are if you do end up in court a jury will NOT understand the " I make my own modelgun parts because I like to fire them a lot " defence and they will most likely think you are doing something illegal and send you down.
Basically if you own ANY replica weapon that can be made to fire projectiles by any old tom dick or Harry with basic tools then the police may have a case.
Next Modelguns :
Most of you will realise most modelguns could not practically be made to fire live rounds..however some may and I say MAY fall into dodgy ground. certainly any metal model derringer should be avoided and its also worth steering clear of ABS models as these could be perceived as too easily convertible (two steel tubes, welded together and bolted to the frame.hey presto a cheap (very dangerous weapon) just because YOU wouldn't fire it does not mean some other bloke wouldn't.
There is also a case in the UK of a certain police force attempting to prosecute someone for having an MGC Thompson.( I think they are on this forum) The police argument was that it had a fully functional semi and full auto trigger mechanism.
Now as far as I know this case was thrown out but it still caused the owner a heck of a lot of hassle and I dare say lots of lost sleep.
A different police force will have a different view from another .
Another thing is that if you do get raided, they WILL confiscate every single gun shaped object and they will hold them (for a seriously long time like .. years )
while some forensic bod plays with them trying to work out the force required to break them.
chances of you getting them all back and in working order are quite slim.
Model guns in the UK are able to front vent because the sparks/ gas exits with hardly any force however if you have a particular model that can emit a larger streak of fire out the front I wouldn`t particularly wave it about outside as your neighbour won`t know the difference .
You may think "heck there is no reason I should get caught" well let me point out that Special Delivery items in the UK are subject to Airport scanners so if you buy or sell ANY gun especially all metal ones then there is a chance an operator may see it and call the police to inspect.
An innocent sale and then you are being watched, thats all it takes.
Things can also only get worse when the VCR bill is official as you will only be able to buy replicas for a "legitimate reason" and unfortunately "having a spare room full is not valid"..

I knew that making spares could be an issue and took (what I thought) was reasonable precautions to cover myself BUT I’m having second thoughts.
Am I doing an OK thing making spare parts or am I going to get a visit from the local constabulary

Post by Phil_D

8ace, you need to check the law yourself, i'm not saying anything against what Doc posted as i'm not in a position to argue if its right or wrong.

For your own peice of mind, check yourself mate.
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Too many to list now and the collection has stopped still growing.

Post by Spencerman

Spare parts for models will not come under the vcr bill in a negative way. For example, airsoft. Whereas it will be ridiculously hard to buy a new gun, if your magazine, or slide break, then you can buy a replacement. Knowing the law in this country, it will more than likely then make it illegal to manufacture a replacement part, thus making obtaining one impossible, but as it stands at the moment, that will be fine, depending upon the part. Obviously if you started making full steel rifled barrels for blank fire guns to allow forward venting or something, then you would be in serious shite, but a replacement metal barrel for say an mgc 1911 would be fine depending on what it is made out of, so long as you stuck pretty close to the original. Obviously, this is just an example, certain parts would be more questionable than others. Barrels made of steel would be a no no, whereas maybe an aluminium one would be fine. Also things like breach blocks, bolts, that sort of thing should be fine. Start making components that would allow real tolerances and that is where you would be in trouble, such as slides or frames etc.

Treat each part on its own merit, and you should be fine. What difference is there between you making someone a replacement bolt for a tommy gun out of suitable material for a model, or someone buying one from Hudson, or MGC? Anyone could buy a replacement trigger unit for a real H&K USP without any license, so what harm would there be if you made one? Older Marushin breach blocks do not have a firing pin, but a push bar mechanism. Again, that would not be able to on its own as it was without modification be able to fire a live round. Try not to worry too much until the whole thing comes into force full swing, then maybe get a little more choosy about what you do. My best advise, is to make as many bits as you can while you can and not worry at all, pay for the equipment before it is too late!
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Post by Doc

I didn't mean to cause panic but would rather people are over cautious so are 100% safe.

All you need to do is look at it from more than one perspective :

1. you are making steel parts (that will last) for your modelguns and your modelgun mates ...this is how you see it .

2. The Law will look at it like " can part B be used to make anything fire a projectile "
This is why the HSS pin into the face of the steel bolts was advised , not impossible to remove but beyond the realms of simple drilling .

There is a way to make steel barrels too but you have to ensure they cannot be adapted to fire a projectile , i.e by cutting off the end and inserting a ball bearing etc .
You`ll find there are certain things fitted into the MGCUKs Custom Stens/MP38s to prevent tampering, but they are unlikely to say what as once these details are out it reduces the effectiveness of the anti tamper measures .

As long as you make sure none of your parts could be bought by a criminal and adapted to make some sort of working firearm by just the use of basic tools then you should be ok .
However a "visit" is always on the cards when making anything gun related (especially after October)



DOC
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We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by MadMike

I think one point is if and how you distribute your parts. If you machine them at home for yourself or only for very close friends, no-one will care as long as these are spare parts for your models. But if you start distributing them or making parts for other people there is always the risk that authorities get wind of your "business". Further more there is always the risk that "dissatisfied customers" might inform authorities. Sadly it is not so uncommon that today´s customer is tomorrow´s opponent.
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"It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over."

Last edited by MadMike on Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total

Post by 8ace

True, it is always better to be over cautious.
Doc,
Section 2.19 of the home office firearms guidance

Quote :

Guidelines on the 1982 Act
2.19 Guidelines have been issued which
advise on the technical measures that can
be taken to prevent an imitation firearm
from being readily convertible into a lethal
barrelled weapon. These guidelines are
intended primarily for the gun trade and are
available from the Gun Trade Association.

Are there copies of this available to non members of the GTA

Post by Doc

No , I dont think you will find these guidelines easily available
as public knowledge of them may reduce their effectiveness.

Anyone in the UK is allowed to construct a replica gun (before OCT anyway) however the Gov dont want to be helpful and guide anyone in this ...they would rather just convict you when you havent followed the rules they didnt allow you to see...... nice

thats the Government working for us then ..........

NOT

DOC
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We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

It's definately a case of being cautious and using common sense from now on.
Those of us that aren't active Reenactors wouldn't (probably) be taking our model guns outside unless we lived on a remote farm somewhere, wellaway from Joe Public.
It'll possibly be the case where we won't be taking BB or pellet air guns outside into the garden from now on "just in case"!
It's going to be even more of a closet hobby where we use our modelguns in the privacy of our own homes where no-one else can see them or be frightened into thinking we're handling real guns.

As for making spares that are otherwise unobtainable, well if talented guys like 8ace can make bits for their own use with their own equipment in the garden shed then great. The problems might come if making parts becomes a business where you don't know who the customers are?
Discretion regarding what you would make on your lathe and milling machine will be necessary too won't it? If somebody asked you make a bolt complete with firing pin or a rifled barrel your answer would have to be a clear NO wouldn't it?

As for community within this forum, it's probably true to say there's a core of regular contributors here that are genuine enthusiasts that aren't stupid enough to go out waving model Thompsons or Colt M1911's in the High Street (at least I'd hope so!)
If spare parts do become increasingly difficult to find, especially with the demise of MGC Japan, we are going to rely on either :

*Making our own parts
*Hoping that UK dealers will agree to sell spares even if the modelgun wasn't supplied by them.
*Keeping the ability to manufacture "sensible" spares within the forum?

It's going to be bloody difficult and awkward, no doubt about that.
It's going to get even tougher I think to buy parts from UK dealers because they will probably be kept under close scrutiny by the Authorities.
Hopefully a level of Trust will have built up between the regular forum members, the UK dealers and their customers, that will allow us all to help each other out?
As long as we keep everything well within the Law and don't abuse it of course.
If we don't, then the hobby and all the enjoyment we get from it, not to mention the vast amount of money we've spent on our collections will soon be over and gone.

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.