BOOM or PFFT... ?

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

Hello GZ,

Bloody Hell mate, there's no way I'm going to mess about with either magnezium nor sparklers after your informative warnings!
I wonder how the guys that put on those original posts, including photos, got away with it!
Thanks very much for your warning, stuff like this is very welcome.

Take care

Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by jay851 ***

i may be wrong,but did they use shavings from the fire starter blocks that are used to start bbq's.these would be a bit more stable.

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***


Hiya Jay,

Iseem to remember they used shavings off something but can't figure out what!
Maybe it is BBQ starter blocks?
Can anyone shed some light on this one please?
Has anyone achieved reasonable muzzle flash without blowing up the gun or setting the cat on fire?

Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by gz22 ***

They were using shavings from a Magnesium Firestarter block. Certainly more stable than the powdered form - although you must still be careful not to get blinded or burnt. The fact that the material is placed into the muzzle end offers a small 'safety distance' to the firer - though I'd definitely not recommend doing this with ABS components. A good steel barrel is what you need - zinc and aluminium are often used in admixture with magnesium and they serve to energise the flash and heat generated when burning.

An additional point to bear in mind is that pyrotechnic compositions and compunds burn very fast - however as you confine the material it begins to burn faster and faster until an explosion occurs. This is because the rate of burning increases expnoentially with the rate of confinement. A simple way to illustrate this is like so;

Remember when you were a kid and you had fireworks bangers? Every now and then one wouldn't go off, and after a while you'd pick it up and snap it in two, pouring the powder onto the pavement. Once you lit that powder, it went up in a puff of smoke with a very fast whoosh and hot flash. Hence why it was known as 'making a genie'.

That's the difference between having it confined inside the tube of the banger and having it open on the pavement - the degree of confinement causes it to burn so fast that there's no room left in the tube for the hot gases to expand, and the tube ruptures at the weakest point, releasing the gases and splitting the air molecules apart, causing an explosive bang when the air molecules slam back together again.

So in all, use a steel barrel and large shavings of magnesium in order to provide a 'safe' effect, although no one can guarantee safety when dealing with 'DIY' effects.

However you approach this - please remeber this old adage;

Do it safe - do it right - or don't do it at all.

Many thanks,

GZ

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

Don't do it all seems the best with this eh?



Ah well we can't have it all!

Thanks for all your knowledge and good advice GZ!

Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by gz22 ***

What we really need is for a UK company to agree to manufacture something like those disposable cartridges that you get with the Wa Shan pistols - then we'd get a very loud bang and a good deal of muzzle flash if we specified the composition to them. I might have a nose round and see what I can turn up...

BTW - does anyone have a picture of those disposable carts that they could put up or mail to me? (xaxta@hotmail dot ocm) It will help me with my endeavours.

NB - the 'dot ocm' is for antispam purposes - you know the drill

Cheers

*** Originally posted by spencerman ***

You will find pictures of them here:

http://mp40modelguns.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=45&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

*** Originally posted by mark ***

GZ22 wrote:

What we really need is for a UK company to agree to manufacture something like those disposable cartridges that you get with the Wa Shan pistols - then we'd get a very loud bang and a good deal of muzzle flash if we specified the composition to them. I might have a nose round and see what I can turn up...

BTW - does anyone have a picture of those disposable carts that they could put up or mail to me? (xaxta@hotmail dot ocm) It will help me with my endeavours.

NB - the 'dot ocm' is for antispam purposes - you know the drill

Cheers

True, we certainally do need a manufacturer for the disposable rounds. As the availability of disposible cartridges (gold colored, bio-degradeable plastic?) would help the cost as well as finding/cleaning cartridges. It really doesn't matter where the company is located as long as they are available!

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

Has anybody asked Francky if he can obtain these disposable rounds?
Would they work with most PFC models or just those with specific detonators?

Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by mark ***

Sadly, I don't think that Francky can get the cartridges that we are thinking about. I know that MGC made plastic cartridges sometime ago these where intended for the paper caps and they are fairly rare today. I also know that Tanaka made plastic/brass cartridges for their G17/18 series. These had some machined brass components and a two piece body. They have been out of production for sometime I guess.

The Wa Shan disposible cartridges would be nice to obtain. However, they are made in Taiwan and they as far as I know, cannot be bought because due to the fact that we don't have any contacts in Taiwan to get them! I am sure that if we could get a good supply of them we could make the proper detonators for them.

*** Originally posted by spencerman ***

I for one would love them. The Wa Shan disposeables are great. No need to find them again after they have been flung about a million miles away from your gun either! I have had a few missfires with most types of cartridges, very few with the Wa Shan ones, more often than not I get a feed jam, but not once with the disposeables, and only one feed jam (from a Glock where it flung the thing so hard that it broke a lamp and then jammed on the next round!). There will always be a need for reloading your own cartridges, but it is nice every now and then to just say, sod it, i cant be bothered. Perhaps that is part of the appeal of blank firers. I know that when I used to shoot I used to be able to make my own rounds, but I hated doing it, even though it worked out a fraction of the price to do home loads, and model guns are no different. The only thing that I would suggest, is that if someone can get them, then please, please, please, just like real ammo, offer the option to buy by the thousand!

*** Originally posted by gz22 ***

Thanks for the picture link - I'll see what can be done.

*** Originally posted by jez_jpr ***

I reckon disposable rounds, readily available in most common calibres would be the best thing ever. Re-enactment and film work would be much cheaper and stress-free. Cartridge hunting is a pain in the arse and it never ceases to amaze me how a BRIGHT BRASS shell can be so difficult to find in the grass not 2 feet from your face.

I don't play with my model guns nearly as much as I'd like to because I frankly can't be arsed to clean the things afterwards, and have OCD's about keeping it shiny and clean To be able to buy CPHW rounds the same way you might buy 9mm PAK blanks, in a box of 50 and the ability to fire and forget would be brilliant.

Of course, they'd have to be really reliable to make it a worthwhile venture.

*** Originally posted by mark ***

Jez_JRP wrote:

I reckon disposable rounds, readily available in most common calibres would be the best thing ever. Re-enactment and film work would be much cheaper and stress-free. Cartridge hunting is a pain in the arse and it never ceases to amaze me how a BRIGHT BRASS shell can be so difficult to find in the grass not 2 feet from your face.

I don't play with my model guns nearly as much as I'd like to because I frankly can't be arsed to clean the things afterwards, and have OCD's about keeping it shiny and clean To be able to buy CPHW rounds the same way you might buy 9mm PAK blanks, in a box of 50 and the ability to fire and forget would be brilliant.

Of course, they'd have to be really reliable to make it a worthwhile venture.

Yes, disposible cartridges would be the best fix for our modelgun "fix" especially when they are fired outside. It is amazing that the cartridges can get lost as easily as they do isn't it? I made the mistake a while ago of firing my M93R in my backyard and I lost 2-3 rounds

I personally, would like to be able to buy, load, and fire 1,000 rounds in my MGC MP40 in (YES) one day Cleaning would still have to be done but, it would be easier to do because you wouldn't be worn out from loading the caps into the cartridges, finding/cleaning/drying/lubing etc. them.

*** Originally posted by jez_jrp ***

Indeed, cleaning the gun itself isn't that bothersome... infact sometimes it's borderline "fun" It's possibly the closest we can come in the UK now to the genuine article, certainly without licensing. The real pain is carefully scrubbing and lubing innumerable tiny little pistons

I delivered a shiney new 1911 MEU to a friend at a weekend get-together once, it just so happens that we're all model gun or airsoft enthusiasts, so some gunplay in the back yard was inevitable. Quiet area, understanding neighbours, no problem. Even with a few beers down the hatch. Or so we thought.

After firing off a few mags, my mate dunked the disassembled spent rounds in a glass of water to stop them crusting over. However, having taken a drink or several, he absent-mindedly tipped the contents of the glass into the sink... wave goodbye to the innards of a fair few cartridges


It would be so nice to have all the convenience and most of the realism of forward-discharging blank firers, without the legal and safety issues.

*** Originally posted by mark ***

While it would be nice to get the disposible cartridges (it would definately eliminate the accidental disposal of the cartridge internals ) I am not quite sure that I could buy enough cartridges to keep me shooting Although, I am sure that we could keep the disposible cartridge manufacturer in the "black" with our purchases..

Depending on the cartridges price, I would have to have at least 4-5 thousand of them on hand at any given time..You know just in case...

It would be nice if the worked good so, I could do a nice "brass dump" in the backyard and not worry about picking up the spent cartridges. (except when I mow the yard )

*** Originally posted by richard jones ***

One of the UK suppliers claim that their MP40s and M16s are modified for more noise,muzzle flash etc-Any idea what is involved in this?

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

Hiya Richard,

I've got one of the 'modified' MP40's...
I also bought a new kit so could do a little comparing.
From what I've seen so far, the most obvious mod' on the MP40 is to drill 4 holes in the base of the detonator chamber. This will allow more smoke to vent through into and out of the barrel.
Presumably, more noise too as it's an open pathway now?
Muzzle flash is only going to be a few loose sparks and smoke to be honest. It certainly won't be flames!
That's achieved by a little squirt of WD40 onto the gun's firing pin, using it very sparingly inside the round's casing, and for sparks anyway, use Marushin 7mm caps.
The XM177 (M16 derivative) I have is prettyloud as it is. That uses 2 caps per round though, 1 x 5mm and 1 x 7mm, and it has a metal bolt and metal internals. That adds to the noise.
It smokes pretty well but I haven't tried the extra WD40 on it yet so it should smoke even more.
Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by richard jones ***

I did get in touch with the firm asking if they would divulge what the secret was for both guns or if they would convert existing guns and got a big no off them.
Ive hardly fired either my M16 or Mp40 to be honest.Every time i used to try my M16 it owuld jam and or misfire-even though it was bought new and ready assembled.The mp40 was bought used and in teh 10 or so rounds ive put through it it has worked perfectly every time.Tried the WD40 and didnt notice much difference.

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

The supplier won't tell you anything mate, I've tried that myself! It's called 'Sales Ploy' I think!

If you log onto the dealers web site, I'd take an educated guess here, (www.modelguns.co.uk) look at his Modelgun Videos' section.
This is probably the best your going to get really for smoke effect. Noise depends on lots of things. A metal gun will be louder generally, however Hudson's ABS M3A1 Grease Gun makes a lovely racket!, where you are makes all the difference!
Outside will be pretty quiet, just as well really unless you want Police all over you!
A little room with no furniture to absorb sound will echo believe it or not and amplify the noise.
There are other video's about, I'll dig out the linkds for you, thatare amplified either by electronics or just by being shot in small empty rooms.
WD40 takes a bit of practice I'm still learning...
Not enough is no good, too much gets your caps wet.
Get it right though and you'll get more smoke, a bit too much can flame up though as I found out trying it in my Thompson. The breach was alight with red flames for a second or too but i haven't duplicated it since!
You'll get more smoke with MG Caps.
Sparks with Marushin
I don't think anybody's found a cap to give proper muzzle flash yet and I think we're ALL looking!
Check the various posts here on M16's.
Mags for different makes differ in size anyway but there's a TON of info on the forum thats worth reading through on this gun
Cheers for now,
Cerwyn.

*** Originally posted by madmike ***

When I bought my first Marushin XM177E2 kit I needed help assembling it. Further more, I needed extra carts and caps. I contacted www.modelguncollector.co.uk and was surprised how friendly and helpful they were despite the fact that the gun was not bought there.
Regarding the Marushin M16/XM177 series it is a very tricky gun and it needs constant work as well as deburring, lubing and cleaning as friction is a major problem with modelguns. Mine has times it works better, and times it jams or fails to ignite the caps. I found out that the hammer spring tends to become weak.

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

Try these video links, they'll give you a good idea what to expect from a PFC gun...
http://modelgun.hp.infoseek.co.jp/movies.htm
www.modelguns.co.uk
http://www.endoshoji.com/model-guns/index.html
http://www.mp40modelguns.com/model_gun_videos.htm
That'll keep you busy on a Sunday afternoon!
Have a look too at the Modelgun Review section on the forum, Claymore,for one, has posted some great videos on there too.

Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by mark ***

Two of the best modelgun video sites

http://web3.incl.ne.jp/shiraaya/2-mokuzi.htm

http://www.geocities.jp/probelx2001/

lots of videos to see...There are far more sites to see but, they take some searching to find.

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

Hi Mark,

I spent some time ploughing through these video's, thanks very much!
Very informative and damn good fun too
Couldn't help but notice that one (if not all actually) of the XM177 videos showed lots of smoke venting from the ejector port and barrel, as you'd expect, but none leaking from around the foregrip area.
Mine leaks as much smoke from there as from the ejector.
Is there a way, should the area be made gas tight with a sealant during building?

Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by gz22 ***

Can any of you guys on here tell me more about how the disposable cartridges are comprised? In order to further my efforts to find a UK manufacturer for these I need to know what's inside them - i.e;

Do they have any pistons inside them or sealed chambers or are they just completely full of composition?

What exactly is inside them - just composition? Various different parts? etc

If anyone who has used these before can tell me I'd be most grateful, as it would really assist me in my efforts.

thanks,

GZ