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jay851
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PostSubject: HK MP5 modelgun   Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:19 am

Hi guys
Been a long time since i've been on here, how you all doing.
Just wondered if anyone had made a mp5 pfc yet, as a custom one off maybe.
Had a quick search and dont seem to be any released commercially, and with all these funky steel bodied gbb airsoft guns out now, i was thinking of maybe having a go.
Atb
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:21 am

I don't think so but it would be really great to have one !
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:52 am

Yes i agree fella, it would be nice. Im a big mp5 fan and i had a go at building one years ago but never got it finished.
I have a few we apache mp5 gbb's now and looking at them, it looks quite doable now. Need to source a rs mag from somewhere to see if it fits in the magwell. Also, what would be the best 9mm carts to use. Last time i had plans to use marushin uzi/mp40 ones, but is there better ones now.
Atb
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Cerwyn
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:41 pm

Hi jay


It's good to see you back  Very Happy 


One Japanese enthusiast has built a functioning Cap-firing, shell ejecting MP5K... Have a look at this beauty:-



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jay851
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:56 pm

Hi cerwyn
How you doing fella, hows the collection going.
Great vid looks fantastic. Anyone know more details on it like what carts are used.
It definately looks doable with the we mp5, would have to modify trigger pack to make a working ejector, but would be nice to keep the 3 round burst. Any idea where to get a cheap mp5 magazine.
Atb
Jay
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:17 pm

Hi jay


I'm doing OK thanks  Very Happy The collection is still there but not growing as much as it used to. There's a severe shortage of new models available these days.


This MP5K has been a long running project for this Gent. Chances are the cartridges will be MGC 9mm P220 or copies of them by Kano-do or Tanio Koba

(Details of all 3 are in our Cartridge Library)

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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:41 pm

I have to chime in on this!

I have also considered tackling this project, but not sure I have the requisite skills to do so. I am one of the many that would love to have a working MP5 in my model collection.

For carts, I would recommend a CP-HW type of cartridge for more consistent and powerful blowback when compared to the Marushin PFC type. I like the KanoDo or Tanio Koba P220 cart.

For mags, is it ok to import those to the UK? I believe the Systema airsoft MP5/TW5 mag matches the real steel dimensions. It would be easy for you to get your hands on those - but you'd still need to find a follower and mag spring. But maybe getting just the springs and follower would be easier for you in the UK?

Please keep us posted if you take this on!



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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:45 pm

Cheers mate. Am i right in saying these carts use a chamber detonator pin, and are there any 9mm carts that fire from a rear pin, as per real steel.
Atb
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:49 pm

All PFC, CP and CP-HW need a Detonator Pin in the chamber (apart from some revolvers).
Centre-Fire is used on some models in conjunction with the Chamber mounted Det.Pin

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JatiMatic
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PostSubject: real steel 30 round mag for HK MP5   Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:54 pm

Hi @ll.

The shop, where I buy my tobacco also sells blank firearms, softairs, gbbs etc.
Today I took my rs 30rd mag for MP5 and asked for testing if it fits in a metal UMAREX MP5 K GBB. Result: From the measurements it fits in the magazine well but it does not snap in. Cause for non snapping is probably the smaller recess (on the rs mag) for the magazine catch. Prima vista you need to enlarge it, then it will snap in.

As mentioned: I tested it on an UMAREX. Don’t know WE, but I heard that VFC is the spiritus rector of all the high end softairs and gbbs. Most copmpanies buy from VFC and then stick their “Danny Donut” on the carton. So it is possible that UMAREX and WE are identically constructed and only the brand name differs. If so, you will have no big probs to use a modified rs mag for your project.

BTW: The modern high-end gbbs are a pleasure to grab. Weight and finish of the mentioned MP5 K is outstanding and the view to detail is excellent. When leaving the shop I first took accidentally the wrong mag in my pocket but the salesgirl called me back.

I also played with the idea to build a MP5 modelgun.
But I never found a suitable basis modelgun as kind of organ donor.
I think all PFC submachine guns have an open-bolt design and the MP5 is a closed-bolt firearm.

Another drawback, amongs others: All the nice gbbs are only available in semi-auto here. So the lack of a fun button can also cause problems for the conversion.

Wish you much luck with your MP5 project; please keep us up to date.

Regards
Jati

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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:30 pm

Thanks for the info guys. Mp5 mags are legal to own in the u.k, just cant seem to find one for sale so will search some more. I know zib militaria in germany has some so may have to go there.
That is promising jati regarding mag fitting in the vfc, as like you said lots of parts in the airsoft world are clones of one source. I would like to keep it as closed bolt as per original, so maybe have the bolt as spring loaded in the carrier to travel that last 1-2 mm or so to hit a chamber pin when the hammer strikes it from the rear. Does that sound feasible?
Atb
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:48 pm

As mentioned above, many automatic models are open bolt, but there are some that have managed to balance the springs,etc - for example, the Tanio Koba M4 is a closed bolt model and does the job exceptionally well.
Of course, there are a number of semi-auto pistols that manage this, too.  I believe in the video link above, the fabricator used a M9 bolt setup to get the necessary closed bolt function, but I can't be sure..........but I'm sure some forum members can interpret for us.  Smile
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:17 pm

JatiMatic wrote:



As mentioned: I tested it on an UMAREX. Don’t know WE, but I heard that VFC is the spiritus rector of all the high end softairs and gbbs. Most copmpanies buy from VFC and then stick their “Danny Donut” on the carton. So it is possible that UMAREX and WE are identically constructed and only the brand name differs.


Hi Jati - whilst the UMAREX Mp5 is indeed made by VFC, the WE product is wholly their own and Imo (in this instance) is slightly superior to the VFC.

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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:30 pm

I'll get my hands on a mp5 mag and give it a try, hopefully it wont need much work. On a side note, how do the semi auto pistols work. Do they use a firing pin of sorts to push cartridge on to detonator.
Atb
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:37 pm

muzzleflash wrote:


Hi Jati -  whilst the UMAREX Mp5 is indeed made by VFC, the WE product is wholly their own and Imo (in this instance) is slightly superior to the VFC.


Thank's for the info muzzleflash. Then the proof is in the pudding and Jay needs to check if a rs mag will match the WE MP5.

As stated I have such a 30 rd mag in new condition; I only used it for posing/display together with a plastic mag of a cheap Softair MP5 (both mags clamped together).
Jay, I could send this mag to you, so you can check if it is suitable for your purpose.
If yes and you want to keep it then we can trade.
If it is unsuitable you can send it back to me.

Any interest, please give me a PM here.

ljerr2 wrote:
As mentioned above, many automatic models are open bolt, but there are some that have managed to balance the springs,etc - for example, the Tanio Koba M4 is a closed bolt model and does the job exceptionally well.
Of course, there are a number of semi-auto pistols that manage this, too.  I believe in the video link above, the fabricator used a M9 bolt setup to get the necessary closed bolt function, but I can't be sure..........but I'm sure some forum members can interpret for us.  Smile

Yes, such a pistol could be the way to go (maybe a machine pistol like Glock or Beretta?).

Take the mechanical system, modify it and build it in the WE MP5. I know, that is easier said than done. But in this case you have recourse to a system that already works and that’s half of the battle. Drawback: You have to sacrifice such a pistol.

Regards
Jati
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jay851
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:49 am





Some pics of the WE mp5 stamped steel receiver. Looks very promising as it has a sort of trunnion already welded in, so can just make a barrel with chamber which will be pinned in as per original. Im going to start making the barrel this weekend, but for legal requirements need some advise please. Aluminium or mild steel be ok, and ideas on front vent options. Will make a removable chamber, and any suggestions on what detonator pin to use.
Atb
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:02 pm









The WE mp5 bolt differs slightly to the vfc version, but looks promising to add a spring loaded floating bolt head.
The trigger pack will need some slight modding, the gas firing pin will have to go, and a new ejector will need to be made.
But will hopefully keep the 3 round burst.
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:40 pm

Received the mp5 mag today. Tried it in the we magwell and it was a little slack, and had the same problem that jati had with the vfc. It would not go far enough in to lock up, as it fouls on the welded in trunnion. But after some filing/dremeling it locks in now with just a small amount of play.






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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:55 pm

Hi Jay,

I planed to go (almost) the same way some time ago, and a disassembled Umarex / VFC MP 5 lying in my garage... Wink But then I started a new project: changing diapers and pushing a pram... Wink

The reason the RS mags won't fit a VFC is the soft air 'firing pin' protuding from the trigger pack. After I changed out the air soft trigger pack for a G3 real steel trigger unit (including grip - fits tight but it fits), the real steel mag locked in place without a problem.
According to German law, rifle trigger packs are legal to own w/o modification, whilst MP 5 trigger packs have to be deactivated, since they are a crucial/part of a short arm. Mind you: the difference is only the ejector... which I purchased before I decided to go the save way and modify the air soft trigger pack by completing the missing fire control parts for select fire. The same reason why I gave up the plan of a center fire version - just to stay on the save side, so no one gets the impression I'm doing something illegal by (re)building some sort of real gun...

Anyway: in a soft air review of the WE Apache I read that the magwell dimensions differ slightly from real steel (and VFC). So you might end with some filing and dremeling.

As for the ejector: I think you have two options:
-  go real steel and change out the 'firing pin' release/ejector with a real-steel part or a self-made ejector; with the latter you might have to harden the metal, or it might deform from the impact of the PFC.
- go the same way as in the video above with a stationary ejector at the front of the trigger pack protruding into the bolt head. The ejector seems to be installed in the shortened former firing-pin housing.

Keep us posted with your progress. I'm particularly interested in your choice of carts and the design of the chamber. Maybe I might pick up on some of the inspirations from your project... if my 'other project' will spare me some time Wink And the two G36s, awaiting conversion, or the Marushin XM177 I wanted to convert to a HK416. Or the MGC M16 Shorty with broken disassembly lug, or... (No to mention the motorbikes)

Cheers,
Mike
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:45 am

Hi mike
I've had a go at the nappies/pram pushing project 3 times now, and thankfully that phase is long gone. Although enjoy it while it lasts mate as the time flies by. The vfc receiver must be different to the WE then as although the firing pin on the trigger pack does stop the r/s mag fitting, the WE trunnion stops the mag locking up so material has to be removed.
My first choice would be use a real mp5 ejector, but just can not find one for sale. I really wish hkparts would send international. Failing buying one, i would like to keep it as original as possible, so would make one and harden it as you said. Going to make some mock up parts out of aluminium first to see if it feeds and functions first, then remake out of steel. I will be keen to see what you do with the g36 conversion, any ideas on how you would do it.
Atb
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:19 am

Hi
Could any please explain how a closed bolt rifle works, trying to get my head around designing the mp5 bolt.
Pics would be great too.
Thanks
Jay
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:13 am

Hi Jay,

basically, there's two different ways to go with a closed bolt PFC gun: firing pin (centre fire or 'side fire') or moving bolt head. Two examples for the former concept are the Tanio Coba M4 (centre fire) and the the Marushin M16/XM177 (side fire), for the latter the MGC M16:
- with centre/side fire bolts, the bolt rests in the further most position, and only a 'firing pin' moves forward on impact of the hammer, pushing the cart on the detonator
- with the moving bolt head - as the name implies - only the bolt carrier rests in the front most position, whilst the whole bolt head is pushed forward upon impact of the hammer.
Each concept has its merits and down sides. Firing pin (centre fire) comes closer to real steel, which might be a problem legal wise (re: to close to a real firearm...) and the extractor-axis can be fixed to the bolt head. With 'side fire' the whole cart moves forward, so the extractor will have to move longitudinally (think Marushin or - IIRC - Shoei). And you don't have to turn a firing pin on a lathe, the design can be sheet metal, and its channel can be milled on the side of the 'bolt'.

For the moving bolt head on the other side you don't have to drill or mill a hole/channel for a firing pin, since there is none: the whole head moves forward. And since the cart doesn't move away from the bolt head (both move forward together), the extractor axle can be fixed to the head as well. You can even come up with the Mauser style extractor (not a small, claw-like extractor, but a longer, spring steel one), enabling positive feeding. Which, btw, is what I would advise, since the cart moves in the chamber (except maybe centre fire) and pushing a claw extractor over the cartridge rim might pose a problem (pushing the cart too far in case the extractor doesn't jump into the groove).

Any which way you'll go, you'll have to drill a hole into the back of the WE bolt carrier. The hammer has to impact onto the firing pin or bolt head extension to push the cart on the detonator and ignite the cap. And since the 'bolt head' is an integral part of the WE Apache bolt (unlike real steel or VFC), you can put a cylindrical 'bolt head', the diameter of the former GBB piston into the WE bolt. Easiest approach in my opinion? Piece of bar stock as bolt head (length: approximately 1 inch), mill a recess into the front side, appr. 2-3 millimetres deep, diameter of the cart, open at the bottom (so you'll get a horseshoe shaped rim), so the cart has a little stabilisation, mill two slots, one on the right hand side for a spring loaded extractor and one for the ejector on the bottom and drill & tap a hole in the back for a screw which serves as extension, protruding from the back of the bolt carrier, where the hammer can hit it, driving the whole assembly forward. And to prevent the whole shebang to fall out and limit its travel, mill a slot into the left side of the bar stock and put a screw through a corresponding hole in the left side of the bolt carrier that rides in this slot.

Voilà!

You might have to take some material off the back of the WE bolt carrier, since most airsoft gun bolt carriers are longer than the originals, thus preventing the hammer to hit the back of the bolt carrier (the hammer would impact the lower edge of the bolt carrier, but it is stopped before that when the 'GBB firing pin' hits the valve int the magazine).  Most GBB bolt carriers I had the chance to compare to real steel parts did, anyway...

There you go,
cheers,
Mike

P. S.: wow - quite verbose, eh?


Last edited by hkfan on Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:19 pm

Hi mike
Wow mate thanks for taking the time to answer in depth.
I was sort of on track thinking how it could work, though with the centre fire i could not get my head around a pin pushing just the cart forward whilst being held by the extractor. I think the whole bolt moving forward sounds better, and deviates away a bit from the real steel likeness. But, when would the cart be seated behind the extractor, during the bolt feeding forward?
As there could not be a shoulder in the chamber for the cart to stop on, so that the extractor can ride over the rim, as it would need more forward travel to detonate on the pin. Or, would it be when the hammer hits the bolt, the cart stopping dead on the pin,and the extractor then rides over the rim before blowback occurs?
Hope this makes some sort of sense lol.
Atb
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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:31 am

Got a bit more done on the mp5. Made an aluminium barrel but still need to add a feed ramp, will be secured well with a cross pin and nut that screws on in front. Got a real ejector but had to modify the WE trigger pack as the original position was too far forward. Working on the bolt at the moment, and going with centre fire.








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PostSubject: Re: HK MP5 modelgun   Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:45 pm

Hi guys
Sorry it has been a while but been busy with work commitments and sorting out my workshop.
I now have a lathe and a mill so hopefully will get a few projects moving soon. I will still be doing the mp5 but a slightly different route. I will be designing a desposable cartridge using real brass and primers (using a detonator pin not centrefire)
To get my shoei fg42 to fire. If this works, thats the way the mp5 will go, and also my kriss vector project and hk mk23 socom. Will get some updates going soon.
Atb
Jay
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