BOOM or PFFT... ?

*** Originally posted by gamera ***

Hi everyone,

I'm new in the art of model guns. I bought a Mauser M712 a few weeks ago and took a few shots with it. I was quite disappointed by the sound of it. Is it due to the gun itself (full metal version), the Marushin cartridges, the caps (7 mm Marushin), or are all Model guns like this ?
The videos of the Tommy gun or the Grease gun are far more impressive !
It is a bit annoying for a guy like me who enjoys "live role playing games" with guns and monsters.
The Mauser looks great anyway, and the shoulder stock is on its way !

*** Originally posted by claymore ***

Well, i am afraid the mauser is one of those models that is not very loud, sigle shot is pretty bad in the noise levels, full auto is better.

Each model gun has its own sound and level of noise and most make a good sound, old models like the M12s and M76 machine guns are not as loud as thompsons or the grease gun but again full auto makes a difference.

All metal machine guns make a good sound but again do not expect to much on single shot you get more noise from full auto. Most handguns have a good crack to them especially 45,s and the Berreta 96. Again the mauser unfotunatly does not make a loud noise also early Marushin Brownings and P38's (well mine at least) dont make much noise compared to the crack of new cp type rounds.

*** Originally posted by rizzo ***

kokusai plastic open barrel revolvers are very loud

*** Originally posted by reemo ***


Marushin carts are HORRIBLE - no loudness at all....

*** Originally posted by 8ace ***

My Marushin Colt Government .45 (one 7mm cap) is a bit louder than my Marushin M16A1 (one 7mm+5mm cap). But it's fine for me as I don’t want to go any louder as I might wake the neighbours

I did see a video of somebody shooting a model colt ACP .45 and a real one at the same time and the noise difference is huge.

*** Originally posted by madmike ***

The Marushin M16/XM177 is not very loud. I think most of the sound comes from the moving metal bolt, not from the igniting cap.

To my surprise the tiny Marushin Colt .25 with its little carts for a single 5 mm cap is almost as loud as a small blank gun.

*** Originally posted by gamera ***

Thank you for the answers.
I think my next buy will be a Hudson grease gun : nice looks and not too expensive !
And a Mac11 after...
and...
and...

*** Originally posted by mark ***

8ace wrote:

I did see a video of somebody shooting a model colt ACP .45 and a real one at the same time and the noise difference is huge.

That, I believe is my video as I am sure that it is the only one on the net It was fun to shoot them at the same time and I thought for sure that the real Combat Commanders cartridge casings where going to scar up my MGC Comander's finish if one where to hit it.

The fact that these modelguns are for the most part quiet is actually what I really like them for, as I shoot them primarily in doors and their lack of noise is perfect for me at least. Especially when I am shooting them full auto for I certainally don't need any police/ATFE kicking in my door looking for the "machinegun" that the neighbors heard during the day..

*** Originally posted by madmike ***

I just watched that video and have to say I am very impressed! A great comparison of the two guns, an excellent job and a great idea to do that.

*** Originally posted by gamera ***

I understand that for indoor activities, Model Guns are perfect, but for reenactment and RPGs (role playing games) they are disappointing;
But still very nice to look at or handle !

*** Originally posted by doc ***

Mark, just watched your MGC combat commander vid :

a couple of comments ...
1. my God you don`t half look like my older Brother (also called mark) ... I mean the spitting image in that concentrated expression !!

2. ouch as the second (real colt) shell casing bounces off your face

and
3. I have to say there is something quite scary seeing you fire the two side by side, one a harmless toy and the other will kill you !
I`d personally not feel comfortable firing a firearm and modelgun together , its like two totally different mindsets .

(I`m thinking all the times I have fired a modelgun pointed at someone making a vid !!)

nice piece of work your vid though, I can just imagine the other shooters in the background thinking "what the hell is that guy firing , sounds like its got an internal silencer ! "

*** Originally posted by mark ***

gamera,

True, the modelguns aren't all that good for anything else other than making noise and general "Walter Mitty" like adventures as their expensive cartridges and their low noise levels really prevent them from being used in re-enactment outside. But, I still really enjoy them and I won't be without at least one in my house as they are fun "toys"


Doc,

1. That's fascinating that your brother resembles me! Is he also 6'5" tall too?

2. I actually didn't notice the cartridge case hitting me at all as that seems to happen from time to time and I simply get used to it.

3. Well, actually, either of them can kill you just as well given the "right" situation. I wasn't too sure that it was a good idea to shoot them at the same time either as the recoil impulse is totally different. All in all, it still worked out ok. I still was more worried where the muzzle of the real gun was pointing than anything else. That and where the ejection port was pointing in regards to the modelguns finish.

As for the other shooters I don't think that they even noticed Even so, they would have probably thought that I was shooting a .22 conversion kit in my commander as that is what it sounded like to me.

I will have to post the actual video instead of the terrible copy that you see on my site as it's quality is really low and you can't see the details that well.

*** Originally posted by doc ***

Hi Mark,

no Brother Mark is 6`1" but I`m about your height .

yes I can see what you mean about recoil reaction , its a little like rubbing your tummy and patting your head !

I know what you mean about the shell casings , in the midst of battles the shells from our weapons are going everywhere , its not unusal to find them bouncing off people , worst is when you are "dead " and someone unloads a mag right above you ! (eyes closed and mouth shut time ! )

*** Originally posted by mark ***

Modelguns that feature all zinc construction, tend to muffle the caps sound due to the mass of the zinc. That and the bolt/slide tends to be very heavy. This, along with the necessary recoil spring tension tends to slow the rearward travel of the bolt/slidecartridge case. When that occurs, the hot expanding gasses have time to cool down.

When these explosive gasses slow down, their volume decreases to the point that their subsiquent expansion wave velocitys are reduced, thus reducing their sound signature.

There really isn't a good or proven way to increase the noise of a modelgun's cap discharge unfortunately.

If I want to make noise with guns I just have to go to the range with my real firearms. But,it's not really that easy to find a place to shoot now-days, due to urban encroachment. Ten + years ago, it was easy to find a place to shoot but now, there are houses everywhere!

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

I found the Mauser M712 almost silent too. All you can hear is the mechanical function of the gun rather than the cap igniting.
Both the all zinc MGC Thompson and Hudson's Grease Gun let out a loud enough racket for indoor use to make them enjoyable without bringing attention from unwanted sources (nosey neighbours, police, ARU's etc).
I had a blank firing P38 (8mm rounds) that I daren't use anywhere, in the house had my ears ringing, outside would've had police here in minutes!
Top of my own list for realistic action, smoke, and enough noise indoors to be fun and safe must be Hudson's Grease Gun (ABS) and MGC Thompson (All Zinc and Wood). I haven't put enough through my zinc UZI yet but dry firing that makes a good loud clunk so that'll be good I'm sure.
Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by mark ***

The ABS M712 is fairly loud but I mostly attribute that to the fact that its barrel is open where as the all zinc M712 is solid and the gasses cannot escape out the muzzle.

Yes, the Thompson and others like the Hudson "grease gun" or the early Hudson Stens are loud often due to open or "bypassed" barrels. The earlier MGC Thompson's, MP40's etc. had nice open barrels and these can be fairly loud and they are also far more entertaining as gasses do escape from their muzzles as well.

As a side note, I wonder if the gasses are still flamable when they are escaping from the muzzle? If they are then perhaps they can be ignited somehow to create muzzle flash....

I have never tried any blank firing guns indoors/outdoors as they, I understand are extremely loud and they would bring unwanted attention my way.

You might want to re-think dry-firing the Uzi cerwyn, as the heavy bolt can damage the chamber area of the barrel over time as it needs the friction of the cartridges, to slow it down enough to prevent damage.

*** Originally posted by doc ***

I Find the MGC MP40 relativly loud , but this is partly due to a zinc bolt inside a steel receiver . The steel tube amplifies the sound whereas a zinc tube can suppress sound .
Some of the loudest modelguns are the little ones , colt .25, derringer etc.
But as many folks have said , its the lower volume that is the appeal of these things for most.

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

As a side note, I wonder if the gasses are still flamable when they are escaping from the muzzle? If they are then perhaps they can be ignited somehow to create muzzle flash....

You might want to re-think dry-firing the Uzi cerwyn, as the heavy bolt can damage the chamber area of the barrel over time as it needs the friction of the cartridges, to slow it down enough to prevent damage.[/quote]

Thank you Mark, for the tip about Dry firing my UZI. I appreciate it!
There are several strings of posts on the forum re muzzle flash. I'm not entirely sure how the writers managed it but by using magnezium powder (not sure where I'd get it), the photo's posted show really impressive flame rather than just flash. I'm not sure how safe this is, I'd certainly not point it too close to anything flammable, just in case! Would ABS barrel's cope without melting?
The Real Flame caps were supposed to give some flash but they proved to be about the same as Marushin caps for sparks.
I would like to see some flash, I know that WD40 is best avoided when using ABS guns, or with ORinged cartridges but a light spray into the gun's detonating chamber and on the firing pin does produce extra smoke and a few sparks out of the barrel.
If magnezium powder works safely, I wonder if scraping the flammable coating from firework "sparklers" would produce some flash from the barrel? It looks like a quantity of the powder has to be put into the cartridge with it's cap. Would it ignite like a double capped round and break everything? UK members will know what "sparklers" are, I don't know if the US or the Far East members would?

Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by reemo ***

There is absolutely, 100%, no noise when firing the UZI on Marushin carts,....I thought I had a bad bunch of caps, or fouled them with the grease I used for the inside of the cartridges. Nope.

I only had luck on pink Kane Caps......overstuffed with powder and super tight fit made up for the lack of sealing. It was like night and day in terms of "loudness" - however the caps blew the cartridges apart, tearing the backs right off.

Switch detonators and use MGC carts - I recently found out that all those great vids (out of Japan) of the Marushin firing like a MONSTER, were done with different carts - no way you could get that out of the Marushins.

I have to be honest - I dont like ANY Marushin products I have bought, all have been a disappointment to me. Just my own opinion.

*** Originally posted by cerwyn ***

Hello Reemo,
The UZI I have has been modified to use SigP220 cartridges already. Although I've yet to try it properly I'm told it'll be a far better performing model. Here's hoping!
Your comment re videos rings true. Claymore put up a link recently to a Jap site showing a variety of models being fired. All were superb apart from the MGC Sterling that seemed very quiet. I'm convinced these vids are enhanced by being filmed in small rooms to give good echo or something. There's one video sequence on that site which fires the UZI with both Marushin and then SigP220 rounds, there is, I'm sure, some difference. Have a look, see what you think!
Cerwyn

*** Originally posted by mark ***

Yes, the sound is definitely amplified by the small room in which the video's are filmed. Again, I personally don't like loud modelguns and if they where louder I would probably not be able to have as much fun with them (at least at home)

At first, like you Reemo, I thought that Marushin modelguns didn't work and they where far less reliable than any other modelgun. But, I have since discovered that they are good modelguns they just need to be "tweeked" a little to run.

*** Originally posted by reemo ***

Ive done everything to my UZI and still cant get it to work.

Thats another battle another day.

PS.....Francky's custom extractor did not fit my UZI either.

*** Originally posted by claymore ***

I have a custom extractor off Francky and it was too thick and did not fit so i just filed it down and it fits fine now i have also changed it to firing the p220 round and it fires great now

*** Originally posted by mark ***

I really haven't had any real problem with my Marushin Uzi, as it works with either Marushin Uzi/MP40 or the Marushin Beretta cartridges. One of the most important items on the must check list for the Uzi are:

1. Loose bolt components.

2. Ejector drag on the bottom of the bolt.

3. Loose detonator.

4. Tight chamber.

5. Burrs on the magazine feed lips.

6. Friction points in the receiver.

7. Weak extractor spring.

8. Loose ejector screw.

9. Dents around the chamber from dry firing.

When my Uzi started running badly, I discovered several of the above described items where ruining my fun...

*** Originally posted by gz22 ***

cerwyn wrote:

As a side note, I wonder if the gasses are still flamable when they are escaping from the muzzle? If they are then perhaps they can be ignited somehow to create muzzle flash....

...There are several strings of posts on the forum re muzzle flash. I'm not entirely sure how the writers managed it but by using magnezium powder (not sure where I'd get it), the photo's posted show really impressive flame rather than just flash. I'm not sure how safe this is, I'd certainly not point it too close to anything flammable, just in case! Would ABS barrel's cope without melting?
The Real Flame caps were supposed to give some flash but they proved to be about the same as Marushin caps for sparks.
I would like to see some flash, I know that WD40 is best avoided when using ABS guns, or with ORinged cartridges but a light spray into the gun's detonating chamber and on the firing pin does produce extra smoke and a few sparks out of the barrel.
If magnezium powder works safely, I wonder if scraping the flammable coating from firework "sparklers" would produce some flash from the barrel? It looks like a quantity of the powder has to be put into the cartridge with it's cap. Would it ignite like a double capped round and break everything? UK members will know what "sparklers" are, I don't know if the US or the Far East members would?

Cerwyn

Cerwyn.

As far as creating muzzle flash goes, it's an excellent idea, but you should beware that magnesium burns at 1982°C . Of great concern is also the fact that when it is in it's powdered form it is highly explosive due to the smaller particle size and increased surface area of burning. And there's a risk of permanent damage to the retina from the intense white light - approx 1 million Candela -

As far as removing the coating from sparklers - I wouldn't recommend it - you're quite likely to cause an accidental ignition scraping the composition off. Also deconstructing fireworks is illegal for us here.

Furthermore, they contain Strontium and Barium compunds, Nitrates and Perchlorates - all of which are particularly hazardous to your health and can also be subject to spontaneous ignition if mixed with any residues left over from spent caps in your gun.

Our poor ABS components would simply not be able to take the pressures generated by most truly pyrotechnic compositions At the most extreme, they would shatter and turn into shrapnel, at the least they would become molten and ignite - ABS melts at 105°C.

Sorry for the 'War & Peace' style long post - I hope it'll be useful to you guys.

Cheers

GZ