Ronin... Gun Shooting Scenes - Convincing or Not???

Post by Phobus

There seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people on here about gun scenes in films so I was wondering what your opinions were of the above film ?

I was watching it again over Christmas and despite it being a favourite of mine - for a number of reasons , I was left a bit cold by some of the shooting scenes .

Maybe its because we are spoiled with convincing realism in films nowadays : and Ronin is old , or the locaton of the movie - central Paris in one gun sequence .

I was left totally unconvinced of the realism of the scene . We see De Niro firing a Sig 5.56 assault rifle and you see very little flame , movement from the gun , or flying cases , moving bolt etc . Thats the hijack scene in the village.

Is he FIRING the gun or merely simulating live fire ? Same later in the town when he has a support weapon M249 ? I would have expected more noise and acton from the weapon but it seems very inert . Maybe I,m over critical but I would welcome some input from those in the know ?

Even some of the pistol shooting - Ampitheatre scene - looks lame . I ,m sure I never used to be so critical , but now such details spoils the film for me . When its done well it looks AWESOME ( Black Hawk Down - Collateral - Saving Private Ryan ) but when it is,nt .....

Carl.
_________________
Marmite enthusiast

Post by schultzsgt

I see in some movies that they have silencers on revolvers and it makes the same thud sound as an automatic pistol does which is not correct. A revolver has a gap between the cylander and the barrel and would make the silencer useless as the noise would almost as loud
_________________

Post by kickback

Hi Phobus,

I watched the film just the other day (one of my fav's too) and i think that they were actually firing blanks at least with the m249 anyway as if you watch you will see the used link ejecting from the bottom of the weapon,and also look closely you will notice Mr De Niro is wearing ear plugs too which i take it is from the noise...tart.
I hope this answers at least part of your question mate.

Cheers
Kickback

kickback wrote:

you will notice Mr De Niro is wearing ear plugs too which i take it is from the noise...tart.

I've just spilled my tea in my lap laughing...
Cerwyn

Post by MadMike


You are just upset because he ambushed your SAS compatriot with a cup of coffee ...

Well, I like the movie and the plot, especially the friendship developing between DeNiro and Reno. The car chases are great and the shoot-outs are okay, but not top-notch I have to admit. anyway I like the atmosphere of the French towns the shootings take place.
_________________
"It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over."

Post by Phobus

schultzsgt wrote:

I see in some movies that they have silencers on revolvers and it makes the same thud sound as an automatic pistol does which is not correct. A revolver has a gap between the cylander and the barrel and would make the silencer useless as the noise would almost as loud

I see the new Coen Brothers film ( fargo , Big Lebowski - what a film !!! ) No country for old men , features a SILENCED SHOTGUN !! OK I have seen them before with a full length mod , but not as in the film with a screw on item at the end of a standard ( shortened )barrel .
Mike , I agree about the locations . Makes me want to visit France . Looks beautiful. I was wondering if it was the central or tourist locations was the reason why some of the scenes looks simulated ? I really like the film despite a slightly anti English / pro Irish slant to it glamourising the IRA whilst portraying Brits negatively .
I will have to watch the film again to find the scene with De Niro with ear plugs
Thanks Carl.

Post by figaro

There are a number of revolvers with adjustable barrel space.
There was a Dan Wesson that could have it's barrel adjusted to be very, very quiet with a silencer.
No mechanism sound and no ejecting case, no concerns about the subsonic ammo cycling the action as with an auto.
Navy bought up all parts of these when Dan Wesson went away.

There are manufacturers making cans for shotguns. If you guys are really interested in this stuff you might think about subscribing to Small Arms Review (SAR) magazine.
_________________
www.thebutcher-movie.com

Post by 2sharp

kickback wrote:

Hi Phobus,
I watched the film just the other day (one of my fav's too) and i think that they were actually firing blanks at least with the m249 anyway as if you watch you will see the used link ejecting from the bottom of the weapon,and also look closely you will notice Mr De Niro is wearing ear plugs too which i take it is from the noise...tart.
I hope this answers at least part of your question mate.
Cheers
Kickback

Was too long ago i saw Ronin, but used limks will fall out on the sidce of the M249, not the bottom. If they fall out of the bottom it might've been digitally addded?
In my experience most 5.56 wepons won't move around very much, or make a lot of noise or muzzle flame, providing you don't have a very short/too short barrel for the type of round used and the appropriate flash hider.
7.62 is another matter though...
Knight's Armamanet actually made a revolver with piston rounds that was designed to use a suppressor from.
Googled pics:


There is also an old Mosin Nagant revolver that actually has the cylinder move forward when the hammer moves backewards, thus sealing the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone/barrel.
We, Sweden, even used it in our army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

Post by figaro

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=91021352

It's about the cheapest military revolver on the market here.
It would probably work as a silenced revolver.

The muzzle flash with a movie gun is really dependent on the blank used, military blanks tend to be low powered, Swanson or Stembridge blanks have magnesium and sometimes flash powder mixed in with the propellant, and can make four foot muzzle blasts a reality.

You could effectively have a Swanson 22lr blank make a bigger flash than a Belgian military .308 blank, it's all down to the loading.

Frankenheimer swore blue in the face on the behind the scenes that there no CG was used in Ronin, this is incorrect, as there is CG smoke under the hero vehicle when it does a reverse 180, in the village where De Niro uses the ambush device, probably to hide a lazy Suzanne sliding rig, or tire marks from previous takes.

John Frankenheimer was a notorious purist, and took a lot of time on Ronin to make everything as authentic as possible, the cars were driven by actual formula one race car drivers, not stunt men. He also had special forces advisors for the gun play, so if the actors look wrong, it's because they were trained in a different form of street fighting than is the norm now.

When they're ambushed at the water front cafe, De Niro's SAW burns a stain down the side of the building, definitly firing blanks.
You can shoot a SAW, FN Mini-mi without it shaking you, and the real ones make almost no muzzle flash during the day.
_________________
www.thebutcher-movie.com