Machine Pistols in the UK & the US

After watching a DVD on various machine pistols I've some questions regarding these little monsters...hopes some gentlemen here can shed some light (more on the legalities):

1) It was said that after Oct 1995 all the new spec SMGs/assault rifles have to be welded solid in the UK - then how about machine pistols such as Glock 18? Browsed on some websites selling deacts and it seems they're regarded as semi-auto pistols only...

2) In the US, basically only the receivers are to be registered as "firearms" so from what I've learnt, if I own a legal MP5 receiver, then when time's up for any part on the upper receiver, I can simply replace it with new ones (only if I can find it) and the MP5 can stay around for a long time (because the receiver won't be as exhausted as the bolt/barrel/etc). The question is - if the slide of a Glock 18 fractured, can a brand new slide (post 1986) be ordered and fitted? Will there be any difference for genuine Glock 18 slide imported from Austria and the aftermarket ones from the US?




Finally - nice to see another classic SMG offered as semi-auto...shame it cannot be imported to HK for target shooting (i.e. not listed as "illegal" in B&W but applications deemed to be rejected automatically - for reasons such as "military-looking" "easily concealable").

I have never seen a transferable Glock 18 for sale, that doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I have never seen one.
Meaning the only ones I have seen for sale, are post 1986 dealer samples - not for sale to most civilians (the law requires that you have them to show as sales samples to law enforcement or the military, and a whole lot of other requirements.)
Same goes for the selector kit, they are sold as a post-86 machine gun, even though it's a tiny pice of metal.

Ref. your slide question, if the slide wore out, and you had the correct permits, you could replace it, but the slide will probably be the same price as a new Glock 18, the actual pistols are not very expensive as they are dealer samples - look on gunbroker.com
BTW the G18 slide will not fit on a regular Glock, (just as the VP-70M slide will not fit a VP-70Z civilian.) Glock goes to some lengths to stop these kinds of shenanigans.
Also, I have never seen a G18 slide for sale, anywhere, ever.

Ref. the HK question, you can legally (without a permit) buy the entire fully automatic weapon except for the completed receiver section. Some states will not allow the hi-cap magazines, and if you have one of the 80% complete receivers, that are sold legally, in the same property, you may be looking at some time if caught. As the parts themselves although incomplete and unassembled may be considered possession of a machine gun.

"Transferable" (to individuals) select fire pistols I have seen over the years for sale in the US (I'm sure there are others):
Star 9mm select fire, 1911 select fire (custom), Mauser M712 broomhandle select fire (and Spanish copies thereof), Browning GP35 select fire (custom), Berretta 93r, H&K VP70M, Mac series of SMGs, Mexican Trejo .22, .32, Russian Stechkin, Romanian Dragan.

Some of these are curio and relic status meaning they are easier to obtain than others, but they are expensive, however, look at the prices over the last few years, they seem to hold their value better than gold.

Hope this is helpful, I am by no means an expert, so anyone please feel free to correct/educate me.

JJ

Tks JJ for this detailed response...

So I think you're right - Glock 18 was introduced in 1985~86 so basically none (or maybe just 1 or 2) made it into the US border before the gate closes...basically all of them are post-dealer samples...

I raised the doubt on the uppers because I can see now there're plenty of M16 uppers for sale (anyway you want - short or long) so as a foreigner I've worked out that as long as someone owns a transferable M16 lower, they can get as many upper receivers as they like (of course apart from the short-barrelled uppers in which I believe an extra $200 is needed since it'll become SBRs).

As "Curio & Relics" (I believe it usually refers to the military surplus), can these guns be fired - or only limited to collection purpose (like other countries such as Germany, Australia...).

So to clarify a point - if I get an airsoft MP5 lower and then I can somehow fit it into a legal MP5 upper perfectly, will it still be legal as a collectible/wallhanger?

There're pros and cons for the US regulations - but I'm glad that they have the "Sunset Clause" as to give hopes to follow shooters - (in my dream) I wish there's something like this in Aust & the UK as well!

jim wrote:

So to clarify a point - if I get an airsoft MP5 lower and then I can somehow fit it into a legal MP5 upper perfectly, will it still be legal as a collectible/wallhanger?

I've spent quite a lot of time through the years reading of the "US Class III scene" or whatever one would call it

Both in various magazines, like the old "Machine Guns News" (GREAT publication!) And also forums targeted at Class III ownership, additionally i have a few friends that owns/deals with Class III firearms.

They had a section that exclusively dealt with the paperwork/legalities concerning Class III guns in the U.S. It was quite apparent that it is very, very complex, detailed and somewhat nuts...

Example: most of the regular semi-auto only HK weapons has a "clip-on" lower, thus you can't easily fit a full-auto-/burst lower to it as they have a pin mounting hole in the lower that mates up with a hole in the upper receiver. If i recall correctly you were deemed to have an un-registered illegal machine gun if you drilled a hole in the upper receiver of your firearm, even though it didn't change the workings of said firearm. (even if you fit a full-auto lower to a semi-auto rifle it still will not produce full-auto fire, the bolt carrier needs to be changed too)
So, basically a hole was judged to be a machine gun

I might not be 100% correct of the above, but what i'm trying to convey with my ramblings is that most people that deal with Class III firearms make sure to be very, very careful when doing things that might be judged illegal as the penalties for messing with federal law are quite severe and it would prohibit you from ever(?) owning firearms again, plus, most probably, personal bankruptcy.

Again, i'm by no means an expert or even resonable knowledgeable individual in these matters so use the above as food for thought and an expression for my concern of your well-being

There really isn't a way to get around it, if you have the parts in your possession, regardless of whether they were bought without a permit quite legally, separately (there is no license needed to buy a 11" inch barreled AR upper receiver, just to put it together with the lower, full or semi auto), possessing them in the same building, can constitute an offense, even if they are not completed.

The receiver is the upper section, physically speaking, of the Mp5 series, where as it is the lower pistol grip/trigger section on the AR series.

However if you wanted to build your $1700 dollar stripped MP5 kit around a plastic airsoft upper receiver and managed to get it to fit together, you would probably be OK - but I'd be very cautious or making it fit too well.

Curio and relic status:
As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 478.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors
by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive
weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas
thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits
firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are
novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of
qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value
and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like
firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

-

Not just military, gold plated semi UZi with a specific serial number, certain automags, gyrojet pistols, short 14" barreled Winchester trapper rifles, cane guns, the list is pages long.
It's all available on line, check it out.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

JJ

After reading all this my head spins...

If I bought an AR15 Sporter (20" barrel) then swap it with the 14" "Commando" upper (or shorter - if any) then I get a SBR while commiting a felony at the same time (because supposedly SBRs have to be registered and pay that $200 stamp duty)...kind of make sense in a way.

Hard to convince people that a 14" is better than the 20" for sport target shooting isn't it?

jim wrote:

After reading all this my head spins...

If I bought an AR15 Sporter (20" barrel) then swap it with the 14" "Commando" upper (or shorter - if any) then I get a SBR while commiting a felony at the same time (because supposedly SBRs have to be registered and pay that $200 stamp duty)...kind of make sense in a way.

Hard to convince people that a 14" is better than the 20" for sport target shooting isn't it?

It depends on which kind of sport shooting you prefer to do

The technical accuracy (between 14" and 20") won't matter unless you are shooting at very long distances where the velocity and trajectory will differ between the shorter and the longer barrel as the shorter barrel will have less muzzle velocity and thus the velocity will drop quicker.
Using iron sights the sight radius is usually shorter on short barrel guns which will make them harder to shoot well. But as "most people" use either reddot sights, holographic sights or magnified sights it won't matter.

I would be very pleased with a 14" gun for my sporting needs

You can however legally buy your short barreled AR, MP5, G3, HK 91, 93, Golani Galil, UZI, Krinkov clone, MP40 series as pistols in most states, as long as they don't have a shoulder stock (or it's welded closed) and the receiver was registered as a pistol from the manufacturing stage, and never as a rifle.

Otherwise they have to have a 16" barrel, or 18" because of overall length on the UZI series in some states.
IE. Sterling Mk4, UZI carbine, PAWS, Krinkov, HK 94, 93 91 series, Thompson, Tapco Sten, Ppsh-41, Pps-43 series, clones with 16" barrels.
But you can make the barrel extension look like a fake suppressor to keep that armchair warrior thing going.

The laws are fine here, probably too relaxed, but who am I to judge, if you really want something and are prepared to pay and wait, it's all possible -

JJ