Importing modelgun - via Police ;-)

Hi guys,

Some time ago I bought a modelgun (MGC Mac11) from a guy in US. It was sent via EMS.
Package has not been delivered for a long time and seemed to be lost. The Post said it's in the Customs and Customs that they do not have it in their storage. After more calling around a Post employee actually checked the whole path (outside of systems) and found out that after this package arrived in country, the package was forwarded to Police. I guess when it was x-rayed, a "gun" was discovered.
Based on discussion with Police officer assigned to my case ("illegal importation of weapon" ha!) they have inspected the replica and noticed plastic barrel etc. They said Police is not allowed to make decision (not exactly true - they get to decide what they do with an object). They have now forwarded it to a weapons expert who will provide a written analysis, as only this will allow things to move forward (=give me back my modelgun). The problem is that the procedure will take time. I am still waiting for estimate from Police, but I'm afraid it might take months. Of course the only person who will benefit from this is the expert who gets paid for analysis :-/

There is no law that requires every gun-like object to be analysed, decision depends on people (Customs, Police) who see/handle them - that's why Police does not usually confiscate air rifles, airsoft, toys or other such for analysis. In my case however, someone decided to use the formal procedure (probably as a C-Y-A mechanism) even after seeing a plastic model.

Out of interest: Was it sent from the US via air mail?

It was sent using "US Post Express Mail International".

I`ve had "weapons " tested by the FSS and the MAC 11 was one of them and when it was returned ( partly broken) they refused to give me the test report ( even when I asked under the freedom of information act ...basically they found a loophole to NOT have to give out the info )

The box has a nice sticker on it saying it was tested though

I really dont know what planet these "experts" live on .... I suppose they would test dillingers soap pistol too
...just in case

monkeys ... the lot of them


DOC

Hmm, I need to find out if the actual report will be given to me.

"Testing" is a bit worrying concept. "Expert" could be not only a Police expert, there is a number of approved external companies that provide such services to the Police. Hopefully this will be someone intelligent (I would not dare to think "one who knows about modelguns" even if it should be obvious to a weapon expert) who is not going to do any destructive testing.

People who import pre-1850 replicas and black-powder guns (legal here) from abroad have to go through this nonsense, too. Upon export, Police in origin country (where manufacturer internet shop is for example) sends information to destination country Police (even if it's within EU), who need to take care of that. In majority of cases it is resolved quickly, but in a few cases I know of the gun was seized and submitted to testing. Some were never recovered (presumably destroyed in testing), some were returned damaged or broken (apparently expert did try to fire a non-BP bullet from them).

I have no idea how they will "test" a modelgun. A real expert should be able to tell it from original without any destructive action, but what DOC wrote is not very positive ;-(

All that "testing" is the reason why I am vary of importing metal modelguns from US. MGC68 MP40 that pitfighter has for sale is a great model, for example, but I would not risk importing it. It is NOT a gun, of course, but it's steel, open barrel, and there is too much potential for destructive testing.

As for the chasing part, packages are taken from the plane directly by Customs. Post did not know what happened until they did a more thorough check. I suppose that if I have waited a bit longer (Police are quite slow in their work), I would have gotten an invitation for for an "interview" at a Police station (not sure how it's called, interrogation?). Based on what I heard, it was an unusual case for local Police station (who got the case based on where I live) and when I have my name, they immediately knew it's "guy who imported gun" ;-) Maybe this "unusualness" factor will make things move faster?

Cerwyn - it is a worrying thing with all the restrictions... I understand the Police needs to inspect and check, but this should be done swiftly in obvious cases (plastic models). Recently there was a scandal because some bandits have gotten legal gun permits (even having existing crime history) from Police. Yup, permits for bandits, testing for plastic pistols...

If it was sent surface mail it might of got to you?

I don't think air vs ground changes a lot. This is the first (and I hope the last) modelgun I import from USA that has been forwarded to the Police. Usually when Customs make inspection, they see it is a plastic toy and process it as such. Same for airsoft.

From a legal point of view I do not have any problem with Police inspection, it's just a large delay and risk of damage :-/

This is why I always ask the sender to add a sheet of paper with this text printed on:

"This is a replica gun. The mechanisms in this gun are working, but can absolutely not be used or converted to fire real ammunition."

I never risked to import a modelgun from the US and I think I never will either when I read this, but I've already received a few packages from UK and France without any problems.

Authorities do not trust papers in the box, except to get a price from invoice ;-)

In the past I did the same as you, and thought it would be enough but Customs apparently do not actually use such information. I guess it does help a bit to show good intentions, but I was always asked to provide a description personally, in Polish, signed for accuracy by myself. Even if there already was such a paper in the box, printed out by sender. For airsoft items I had to specifically include sentence that bb energy is under 17J (legal limit), so it is not considered a weapon. I think that such declaration of content is a legal requirement - you (importer) take responsibility for this item.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but even if something is admitted into country by Customs, they still have up to 5 years to verify things. This is probably for fiscal reasons.

DOC wrote:

they refused to give me the test report ( even when I asked under the freedom of information act ...basically they found a loophole to NOT have to give out the info )

I wish they would still provide reports such as this one (taken from GunBroker.com UZI auction that Cerwyn posted):
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/147158000/147158712/pix597903765.jpg

That document is very well written :-)

Update:

I would like to ask you for help translating original MGC MAC11 manual to English (I can translate it further then). Exact translation of everything is not required, most important are sections that explain what it is (plastic toy, not a real weapon etc).

Reason is that I was asked by Police to provide detailed written explanations to the nature of modelguns. Unfortunately there is no modelgun materials in Polish. I wrote an explanation based on pages below, but information from original manual has to be provided too.

English-language modelgun explanation pages that I know about are:
http://www.mp40modelguns.com/what_is_a.htm
http://www.modelguns-worldwide.com/mgfaq.htm
http://www.modelguncollector.co.uk/index_what.html
http://www.plugfirecapgunsuk.com/index.html

Hi smootik,

I wonder if Francky and Shazhib could help you with this Perhaps a PM or e-Mail to them both might be worth writing.

MGC, in its current guise, is closing at the end of April so it may be extremely difficult obtaining a written statement from the company itself.

I don't think the MAC models have been in production for several years, the Model Gun Co. that did manufacture them went out of business didn't it ( ) to re-open as New MGC

If the original manufacturer went out of business a long time ago, it'll be impossible to contact them, so whom would the Polish Police accept a statement from then

Hi Cerwyn,
I will contact Francky and Shazhib.
MAC11 was produced only by the original MGC as far as I know, so the new company (sadly, also closing) won't help much here.
As for acceptance - I can provide a translation signed by myself as accurate. This is not to have a 100% legally confirmed original manufacturer document, but rather to provide another piece of information for their decision (that I am responsible for). For example when importing airsoft, manufacturer document is not needed, only my statement that replica is under 17J (max. legal limit).

Hi smootik

I'm sure that a translation of the relevant parts of the manual, hopefully by Francky and Shazhib, backed up by a written declaration that a HWABS Modelgun is just that, a model, by an European Dealer should give your Police Force the necessary reassurances,

I'd certainly hope so...

An update:
everyone knows it's not a weapon, but due to procedures it will take up to a year to recover this model.

Longer version (applies probably only to Air Mail using National Post):

National Post is not allowed to carry weapons or ammo. They can only do that if package is accompanied with a transportation permit issued by Special Trade department of Police.

Catch 22 starts here ;-)

Special Trade department would not issue transportation letter for a non-weapon, such as modelgun.
Before the package that arrived on a plane is forwarded to Post, it is Customs' task to make any checks (even inside EU). Upon detection (x-rays) of suspected weapon they forward such packages to Police. It is not clear to me if/how they distinguish modelguns from airsoft, Denix or anything else - I never had such a problem before importing airsoft or other modelguns (knock on wood). Likely they changed their procedures due to recent increase in "fighting terrorism".
Police are not too happy, because they know they have a non-weapon, but they do not know it legally (area of competence) - they need to follow procedures (ask for expertise from ballistics department), which takes their time away from other tasks.

So far talking with people in all these institutions I was not able to figure how to make the import process work


Summary:
everyone confirms that modelguns are legal, but no one can confirm how to import them easily ;-)

What a story. I'm sorry you're going through that. And I also wonder will I have to go through same sh*t when my model arives at Customs. I think we can't blame police, but regulations. Keep us informed. Good luck.

While trying to establish how do things correctly I submitted a formal question about import of toyguns and modelguns.
Gist of the reply is: import and export of such toys is legal, provided that package includes documentation proving beyond doubt that this is not a weapon.

Of course "beyond the doubt" is not defined and subject to interpretation by an officer who does inspection, but this reply confirms important thing: every modelgun shipped should include at least a page of explanation of what the content is (see below), as well as instructions (original or printed copy). This does not guarantee that the package won't get stopped during security check, but it provides more basis for decision to the officer performing inspection. Remember - you might not get a chance to provide extra explanations until package is already redirected to the Police. Anything that can help you should be included in the package, regardless if you send it using ground or air shipping.

Airsoft replicas are now frequently imported, fairly known and recognised, but much more realistic modelguns are not. We should make every effort to ensure our hobby continues without problems. Awareness of import/export procedures helps with that.

I came up with the following sample note {some parts should be changed reflect actual model}. Comments are welcome!

Quote :

To Whom it May Concern,

This package contains a toy modelgun of Japanese origin.
It does not contain any elements of a real gun.
Based on requirements of {insert appropriate law name here} law it is not a firearm{weapon/...}.

As required by Japanese law prohibiting possession and manufacture of weapons this modelgun has been designed so it cannot launch any projectile, or be converted to fire live ammo:
- main body {frame/receiver} is constructed from plastic {soft zinc alloy} that would not withstand live or blank ammunition,
- plastic barrel is factory-blocked with metal tab {barrel is made as full metal, with factory-installed hard rod to prevent drilling,}
- chamber has a front-installed metal pin facing backwards.
- cartridges that can be cycled through the toy are made of soft brass, with multi-piece construction introducing weak spots.

Included is also original {a copy of} manufacturer {MGC/CMC/Tanaka...} instruction in Japanese.

Signed:
XXX

Note: this does not have anything with avoiding Customs fees and taxes, the concern here is security.

THANK YOU FOR A GREAT JOB! I hope it'll be helpful to us all (but police in different countries act differently, so we'll see).

Mortimer wrote:

THANK YOU FOR A GREAT JOB! I hope it'll be helpful to us all (but police in different countries act differently, so we'll see).

Great job will be when I get more progress: receive another modelgun via Airmail without stopping it by Customs/Police ;-)

Anyway - the model that was stopped actually got shipped without any paper, instruction or box, just the model, mag and cartridges. Instruction/description might not have avoided the problem completely, but they would have helped. At least information from Customs and Police are similar - they do not outrightly ban import, just require paperwork.

I agree that Police/Customs in different countries acts differently, and you will usually not know it beforehand (for modelguns, for airsoft etc there is already many people with experience). I think wherever modelguns are legal, some additional effort is still required to make shipping easier.

Saga updated - after all, this modelgun has been sent to Ballistic Laboratory. Optimistically they should be done in June/July timeframe. I am really curious what they are going to write in the report (I should receive it, theoretically). And in how many pieces the model will come back ;-)

smootik wrote:

Great job will be when I get more progress: receive another modelgun via Airmail without stopping it by Customs/Police ;-)

It is a great job after all
Two modelgun packages (though not from US but Japan), one with small ABS pistol, other with large metal Hudson Thompson, were recently received without any troubles (except for Customs always finding a higher tax % category to put these in). Both packages were opened and inspected. The printed page (that I posted here) helped to avoid issues. Customs officer said that since enclosed explanations say WHY this is not a real weapon, and contain verifiable facts (like plastic construction or blocked barrel) they do clarify package content for them. I have also asked about a simple declaration "this is not a weapon", but this is now considered not enough information for import from outside EU.

Now, why I bought a metal Thompson just to see what happens at Customs is a good question :-/ ;-)

BTW: there are two TARIC codes (unified EU customs system) that Customs seem to use for modelguns. One is 9304000000, which is actually for gas-powered weapons, such as airsoft. It has 3.2% import tax. The other code is 9503008190 for "toys imitating weapons" with 0% tax. You can easily guess which one gets used ;-)

Police Weapon Labs did not keep promised dates so far, now they shifted once again to October.

A year later...

...I finally got it back.

Model is fine apart from details such as a broken off (and lost) front sight, unglued back sight plate, mangled magazine lips (as if a real round was forcefully inserted and removed?), broken bottom of the grip (some parts lost) and some scratches. I did get an apology though.

I got a paper from initial inspection: package was routinely checked by Customs, although differently than all the other models I've imported it was deemed to be a weapon. Source (USA), real look (this HW version is impressive!) and lack of documents helped to make that decision.
I did not get a paper from the weapon lab testing, but I was told it only provided an official formule that tested object is a toy of Japanese origin, not a weapon.

Final thoughts: as written earlier, model packages should include a printed page with explanations, a manual and any other material that you think can help confirming it's just a toy. No need to panic :-)

So I assume something like the declaration letter that I got along with my MG42 from Shoei is adequate (last time I got it from the HK shop so no Customs worries)... I'm going to get that FG42 Type II direct from Tomio san this time so finger-cross...everything will be fine...