Dry Fire my MGC M16???

Post by Phobus

Hello Guys ,

Quick question , and please excuse my ignorance if I sound a bit ...thick

I read elsewhere about someone who broke their new Beretta 93 by dry firing it and snapping the firing pin .

Am I likely to do the same by playing around with my MGC M 16 when there are no cartridges in the mag ??

I have not received the rifle yet but would like to be prepared - I am pretty sure it will arrive with NO instructions

Regards CARL
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Marmite enthusiast

Hiya Phobus,

I too was advised not to dry fire my Marushin UZI for fear of breaking the bolt. The mechanism needs a cartridge in there to provide a certain amount of friction as the gun operates.
It's not a good idea to dry fire real guns either so best err on the side of caution and don't do it with the model either.
HOWEVER, what you can do is load up a cartridge (or a mag full!) using dead fired caps. That way you can dry fire, cycle each round through the gun and run through the whole process by pulling the charging handle back each time.
That shouldn't damage anything, the gun will have it's cartridge in place, and the cartridge will have dead caps there to protect the pin inside.
Check out MadMike's informaion film on the working cycle of the M16's, you'll see the dry firing sequence clearly there.
Enjoy it
Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Phobus

Thanks Cerwyn - appreciate your response .
where would I find the information film you quoted ??
I had a quick look on the reviews and could not find it there.
Is it possible to locate copies of instructions / manuals for model guns on here ??

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Hiya Carl,
The Videos on this link:

http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle556mmXM16E1OperationandCycleofFunctioningTF93663
YES, copies of instruction manuals are available from friendly members here! I've a few myself that I would copy and e-mail to you if theyre of use to you?
There's an excellent CDRom for sale here by Kickback this is fantastic and worth having. There are English instructions for the Marushin UZI and a stack of Japanese instruction manuals which are clear. This is a 'Must Have'
Which manual to you need?
Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Phobus

Thanks Cerwyn ,
I require any information available for the MGC M16 Vietnam version .The one I am getting has a metal receiver / bolt carrier - if that helps ?
Seller states there are no instructions but comes with 20 cartridges and 5 and 7 mm caps .
Will check out the link you gave me .
Many thanks .


Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Hiya Carl,

I've got a copy of the Marushin XM177E2 manual but not the MGC M16
I'd suggest you ask on the forum, I'm sure somebody will sort you out a copy.
This issue of using 2 caps per round is a sticky one.
Certainly most modelguns only need, and should only use, 1 cap per round. That depends on cartridge size of course if it's to be 5mm or 7mm.

These caps produce a surprising amount of power when ignited and too many caps can actually cause damage to both the rounds and the gun. I blew a Marui P38 pistol apart once by dropping 2 x 7mm charges in.
If you scroll through the forum's postings, there's a ton of stuff on the M16/XM177 and AR15 series models. Well worth a day or two ploughing through, you'll learn a lot.
The Marushin type of rounds for my XM177 uses 2 caps. That is 1 x 7mm cap which is inserted first, then an additional 5mm cap is dropped into the 7mm one. The 2 caps are then gently pushed into the rounds casing and the end cap and firing pin screwed on to close up. You need to be very careful when screwing the cap on as the integral firing pin needs to JUST hold the 5mm cap in place to stop it falling about, but not so tight that you ignite it when screwing the cap on.
It's debated regularly here that a well set up M16, with perfectly smooth action will only need 1 x 7mm cap. The bolt is big. the spring in the butt is big and takes some compressing, I doubt my XM177's anywhere near good enough to work with only 1 cap but it certainly works with both 7 and 5mm's
I've a couple of MGC Thompsons, both have relatively heavy bolts an long springs. They work brilliantly with a single 7mm cap !

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Mark

Carl,I am curious as to how the MGC M16 that you have has been converted to use the later CP/PFC cartridges. As I have said earlier, these MGC M16's where originally set up to fire "paper" Caps. These used totally different cartridges and "detonators"in the barrel.

I urge people not to use more than one cap in their modelguns as two caps over pressure the cartridges and shorten their lives considerably. Some of the modelguns seem to work better with two caps but, that is actually an expensive way to shoot these modelguns.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Hiya Mark,

I made reference in my post to the fact that normally only one cap is necessary, as you quite rightly say. This is a well debated issue isn't it
As some dealers will even recommend the use of 7mm & 5mm caps in the Marushin M16/XM177's do you think that further tuning of the gun will make a single cap sufficient?
I am well aware of the potential power and energy these caps have stored inside them.
One Marui P38 blew itself to bits (easily rectified thankfully as it wasn't particulary well made) but I've had a MGC .45ACP round destroy itself in my Thompson...
Although only a single cap was used, it blew the piston clear out of the hole on the 'bullet's' nose. That took some doing!
Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Mark

Heck, even Marushin suggests the use of two caps in their XM/M16 instructions. But, the fact is that they do sell new cartridges and parts don't they?

Ultimately, it is up to you guys on what to use cap wise on your own personal property. I can merely suggest not using more than one cap at a time..When I first started collecting modelguns, I borrowed an early (1984) Marushin Uzi from a friend and tried a small bit of black powder! and a small cap (4.3 mm) it blew of the cartridge bottom threads! Not cool when you just have 5 cartridges and no possible replacements for them! After that point, I try to keep all of the useable cartridges that I can!
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Phobus

Thank you all for that information ,

The more I read about these guns - the more fascinated I am .
Especially surprising the power of these little caps .
I have some caps because I bought one of the grenades from model guns which uses 7 mm caps (? )

It is tempermental to use at the best of times I assume when they are encased within a cartridge the power is magnified ? Otherwise they are innocuous looking things arn,t they ? Like we played with when we were kids .

Mark - I will try to post the photos I have of this rifle - As yet I have not received it from the seller . When I do , I will take some detailed photos.

Thanks for the link Cerwyn - I could not download the movie - problem with my computer

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Mark

The modelgun hobby is fascinating and can be extremely addicting if you let it. I will be intrested in seeing the pictures of the MGC that you purchased, especially the chamber area. From what I have seen for videos on the properly CP cartridge converted MGC M16 "Vietnam" modelguns the subject guns fire almost flawlessly. Now, of course, there is very probably some editing of the videos to conceal the thrown guns, cursing etc. But, they appear to work good...

The 5 or 7mm caps can build up considerable gas pressure if the cartridge or container is well sealed. The phosphorus composition is an agressive oxidizer and its expansion/burn rate is good to say the least.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Phobus

Thanks again Mark,
A BIG parcel arrived this morning ( not so heavy tho , ?? ) - heheh . Looking forward to opening that up later today.

Actually , I was thinking , regarding your comments about these MGC M16 rifles being quite rare in cartridge firing context . Have you looked at the modelguns website here in the UK ?
modelguns.co.uk

They have loads of cart firing M16 ,s - even some early Vietnam M16s and later M16 variants all of which are cart, firing - so are they really so unusual ?? Please don,t think I am trying to be clever - I am new to modelguns - so perhaps I am confusing models or something ??

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Claymore

Hi Phobus, first as the others have said no dry firing mate, not good. If you need a manual pm me with your email address and i will scan and send a copy.
Right as to rounds, the marushin m16 takes 2 caps, 1x 7mm 1x 5mm, the MGC takes only 1x7mm cap the rounds are cp style on the mgc so work better. DO NOT put 2 caps in the mgc it will be a very bad thing if you do.

Rounds were a problem in the past as there are only 2 sources in the UK and 1 source will only sell rounds if you buy the gun from him. Now we have Francky probably the best friend of everyone on this forum and now you can get rounds through him.

Hiya Claymore
Was I right in suggesting dry firing BUT using cartridges loaded up with dead caps? I'd hate to think I was suggesting something incorrectly?

Also, as you said, Marushin recommend 1 x 5 and 1 x 7mm caps in their rounds, but Mark reckons 1 only should be enough. I fully understand that 1 cap is always enough when only 1 is recommended but do you know if a Marushin M16/XM177 would fire consistently with only1 7mm cap?
If yes, then what's the secret setting the gun up to achieve this?

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Claymore

Hi cerwyn
I tend to use the 2 caps in mine as i like the extra power and noise, but mark is right inthe fact that your rounds wont live that long. The marushin round is pretty crap any way and the threads give up very easily with just one cap and the bottom blows away from the top so with 2 caps you increase the risk and destroy rounds sooner.
1 cap works but you need to put a spent cap in as a seal, punch a hole in the spent cap with a hole punch and place the cap on to the pin on the bottom piece of the round,powder up so to speak. then when the other half of the round is loaded as usual you carefully screw the bottom half on the the top pinching in the edges of the spent cap so it becomes a seal.

Description not good i know, i am sure someone posted a pic of the process somewhere on the forum if not i wil try to take a few pics and send them to you.

I dont see any problems with dry firing the gun with a empty round in it i would think john does with his as he cannot buy caps.

Post by Phobus

Thanks for that Claymore and Cerwyn.

I am starting to think my rifle is a Marushin although there are no trades on it that gives the manufacturer that I acn see. Perhaps I am looking in thewrong place ?? The caps that came with it are Marushin 5 and 7 mm.

It has all the M16 trades and is full metal with a straight through barrel. It is very solid and heavy . I was surprised - never having held one before -how small & dinky this rifle is . Very practical and comfortable to hold though , like an MP5 .

The detail on this gun is amazing - perhaps you guys are used to that !! I am not !
The magazine base plate has : Colt logo COLT AR15 , cal 5.56mm. COLTS FIREARMS DIVISION , COLT INDUSTRIES , HARTFORD CONN , U.S.A.
-Could this be an original Colt magazine ?? - No - I just tried a 5.56 round and the nose of the bullet sticks out .

I have been cleaning it up this morning and can see that apart from cosmetic dings here and there it is very clean
Next job is for me to clean up the carts which are VERY dirty .
I am hoping I can find some good info, on here on how best to do that .

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Madmike

Hello Carl!

Yes, this is a MARUSHIN M16. Only Marushin maetal M16s have the full Colt trademarks. The early MGC all metal M16s have "M16 ASSAULT RIFLE" on the left and "MODELGUN CORPORATION. MGC. TOKYO JAPAN" on the right side of the lower receiver.

Nevertheless you have a fine modelgun, even better all spares are still available.

Regarding the MGC M16 modelguns bear in mind that only the early ones (untill early 1980s) are full metal ones. They were designed to fire so called paper caps, not the now common plug fire caps. Some of them can be converted to fire new MGC plug fire cap carts, changing the detonator and using new cp carts, but some can´t. There are also dummy models only out there, which can´t fire any caps. They were exported on a rather great scale to the USA and often used as prop guns in the background in movies like FULL METAL JACKET and the TV series TOUR OF DUTY.
MGC produced various ABS M16 guns and carbines in the late 80s, they could fire the later carts and were well detailed, but lightweight due to the ABS body.
MGC got bankrupt in the early 90s, but they started to produce modelguns under the logo "NewMGC" again. These later M16 guns are heavy weight plastic carbines like the M-725, the M4 Carbine and the short barreled M4 Comanndo. But they did not make a M16 style rifle with long barrel and solid stock. These latest models are highly detailed with full Colt markings. They are reliable when firing, but a real pain to strip down and clean. As far as I know NewMGC has stopped their production of M4/M-725 Carbines now.

Post by Phobus

Thanks Madmike - I think that you are right and this is a Marushin M 16 . I was wondering if - from the details I gave - what the year of manufacture might be ??
You did mention early 80,s ??

Regards
Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Mark

Be aware that MGC did offer the all metal early M16 with the optional Colt markings through the "MGC BondShop" So, it could still be an MGC made modelgun. However, I am still under the impression that it is a Marushin made model.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by DOC

Phobus

how does the receiver come open at the back.

Is it a push out pin ( Marushin )

or is it a Hex/ allen Screw ( MGC )

Note : the ABS MGC had a push out pin

If Marushin then most of the early ones have a date stamp (like 9 84 ) , the later new run have "SMG" amongst the rest of the text

DOC
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Phobus

Many thanks Doc and Mark,
I am looking at left side of receiver - its a push pin which comes out quite easily with finger pressure.
There are numbers above the trigger 9 . 81 .
Below the model designation and calibre is the number 1621981 and SMG - ( sub machine gun ?? )

The fire selector is not positive and could give me some problems - very sloppy on the semi auto setting - I wonder if I can repair it - Banjoe said parts are available for these ??

The handguards are poor & IMHO spoil an otherwise nice model - they are thin and tacky and plasticy , like a cheap airsoft .

I am still very pleased with it though


Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Madmike

Okay, this is a MARUSHIN. It was made in September 1981, the serial number is the same on all Marushin M16A1s. "SMG" means safe metal gun, this stamp is required by Japanese laws. Plastic modelguns normally have a "SPG" - safe plastic gun on it.

It should be an early version with the heavier zinc carrier bolt then.

Well, the fire selector does not really stay in place well in the SEMI position. If it is really loose, a new fire selector may help as the small holes where the spring loaded pin goes in may be worn.

Be aware that MGC did offer the all metal early M16 with the optional Colt markings through the "MGC BondShop" So, it could still be an MGC made modelgun. However, I am still under the impression that it is a Marushin made model.

Thanks Mark! I didn´t know that. I have never seen one with these markings. Do you know if they were available in the US? I know that the COLT trade marks on the later MGC ABS M16s had to be removed, at least I have seen such modelguns.

Phobus wrote:

Next job is for me to clean up the carts which are VERY dirty .
I am hoping I can find some good info, on here on how best to do that .
Regards Carl.

Hiya Carl,
there are several posts on the forum covering cleaning cartridges, I know coz I've posted a few myself
How many have you got, is it just 20?
Reason I'm asking is that a small quantity won't warrant spending on cleanih machines so it'll be a slow rather tedious cleaning and scrubbing by hand I'm afraid.
If you can't find the cleaning and preparation posts Tell me and I'll give you as much as I know, ok?
Cerwyn

Post by Phobus

Thanks Cerwyn and Mike ,
Yes I have 20 carts with the rifle - they are very scruffy - I know the previous owner did not shoot the gun just kept it for display .
I had a look on the search but not found much yet as regards cleaning proceedures - I will try again soon.
I am patient , I don,t mind waiting to shoot it .
Besides , after reading the review of the Marushin on Arnies , I am scared something similar might happen to my gun

After assembling the M 16 - I found a tiny spring and brass follower left in a little plastic bag -
After a couple of EMAILS I figured where they go but the selector is still a bit sloppy . Well what should I expect ? Its 25 years old for chrissake!!

I did not get a loading tool for the carts - can you manage without them ? Or is it possible to improvise ??

Thanks CARL.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by Mark

Carl,
The cartridges/gun can be cleaned efectively using a mixture of HOT water,vingar and baking soda (sodium Bicarbonate) and dry the gun as well as the cartridges throughly after cleaning it and spray a light oil on the small steel parts.
The loading tool easily subsituted with a pen or simular that fits into the cartridge case fairly tightly. (just under the caps outer diameter) the caps don't need to go into the cartridge case very far...