New to Model Guns Please Help Me Out

Cerwyn wrote:

These models can get frustrating I know, but worth sticking to it   

Certainly the best way of cleaning is an Ultrasonic Cleaner but hot soapy water and a small diameter scrubbing brush will do fine if you're not looking at large quantities of cartridges.
The other machine is a Polisher intended for polishing real ammunition brass cases when reloading. I find both machines perfect for modelgun cartridges when I'm cleaning 30 - 100 at a time.

So, the first round fires perfectly every time, but the following two don't? Is the Detonator Pin secure in the barrel?

Well No.... the first round fired nice once.. still having issues.. very rarely will one shoot really nice.. i think it was a fluke lol.. i have 16 cases so its not alot but its a hassle since i cant get a reward at this now.. if i had one fire for sure everytime i would be happy   ... i am using " Permatex white lithium grease" is that a good one? all i have here now is that a can of wd40 and a alcohol bottle.. and a cleaning rod to a blank gun..

Just a last check to do, take of the bottoms of the carts, and check that the pin in the bottoms are all the same length, I have seen this pin length vary, find the longest, and the shortest and test fire those two carts, bet the longest pin fires the loudest
NOTE even a .2 mm difference matters!

JohnnyV wrote:

Just a last check to do, take of the bottoms of the carts, and check that the pin in the bottoms are all the same length, I have seen this pin length vary, find the longest, and the shortest and test fire those two carts, bet the longest pin fires the loudest
NOTE even a .2 mm difference matters!

honestly just tried and nope.. all same    .. im running low on caps now and the damn thing isnt firing good... what if i move the det pin in the barrel a bit closer to the body?

so i was curious and had a few red caps.. i ended up doing this and it shoots everytime...





i tried it with empty red caps and with full red caps.. the full makes a big bang and the empty ones just make a normal bang..and the normal 7mm caps in the bullets are getting punctured everytime.. idk why this red cap makes a difference.. obviously its not suppose to be in the bullet..

The empty red cap is causing the same effect as the det pin in barrel being longer (or conversly the pin in cart being longer) in effect it would seen that the problem with the model is the det pin in the barrel is a tad to short, if you can find a effective way to bring it back a bit this should sort your problem.
If you can try maching up a exact copy of the current det pin but a bit longer, NOTE too long and the cart will fire when slide shuts
Other way would be to machine up some thicker brass inners for the carts...
Looks like your on the brink of success!
Well done for trying!

JohnnyV wrote:

The empty red cap is causing the same effect as the det pin in barrel being longer (or conversly the pin in cart being longer) in effect it would seen that the problem with the model is the det pin in the barrel is a tad to short, if you can find a effective way to bring it back a bit this should sort your problem.
If you can try maching up a exact copy of the current det pin but a bit longer, NOTE too long and the cart will fire when slide shuts
Other way would be to machine up some thicker brass inners for the carts...
Looks like your on the brink of success!
Well done for trying!

So apparently with me doing this and my math.. i need 0.80mm more on my det pin.. i find this odd..
here is the new pin i modeled.. guess i will have to machine it.. i really dont want to tho. i feel it should work if it was made with this pin why isnt it working with this pin?



Also i was looking at my slide and when the hammer drops it does push a piece foward in the center and the side.. here are two pics of that also..

Here at rest


Now pressed in

Lots of reasons why they often do not quite work, ( the key thing is expectations, I would guess the vids you have seen have the mic gain turned up high... ), In japan modelguns are seen as things to LOOK like gun for display, or if you want to fire them then it is normal to have to mod, fiddle, improve, its part of the hobby... seems odd to the west where we just want things to work no fuss, but thats they way it is there. I understand that you get out of these things what you put in, it is more of a hobby than a tool for firing.
Some guns do just work out of the box yes, but its not at all uncommon to have to mod/fix them.

I do not know where you got yours/ the history, but another simple thing going on may be that it has been left cocked or with the slide racked for display and this over time will compress the hammer spring and weaken it, the symptoms you have could be improved with stronger hammer spring as well.... but the more you adjust the more chance of breakage... its a fine line..

For me the greatest pleasure come from improving a model to the point where its as good as I can get it.
Another thing you can do it to try double capping (5mm cap inside the 7mm cap) BUT WARNING:
The slide may not take the extra force.... again its a fine line, also hammer spring may not be strong enough to fire two caps...

Modelguns are highly addictive due to the fiddle factor..

A  word that can be sort of applied to modelguns is KAIZEN...........

well my gun has sat in its box for plenty of years i am told.. pretty much i am the first person to fire it.. which it did seem like as it was spotless...are the caps suppose to be stiff? my caps seem a bit "rubbery" maybe they are too old ? when it fires it does indent the cap but doesnt puncture.. that why i ask are they suppose to be stiff.. if i load the gun up then whip the gun in my hands while firing it ; it does make the bang and everything .. i guess my whipping gives it a extra "umf" .. i would assume its normal to fire with no noise but once in a while i got the nice bang i like.. so that has to be the way it fires..

I am going to be ordering caps here soon can someone tell me what kind i should buy? is there a difference in the mg caps and the marushin caps? also will sparking caps work in my gun?

the caps did not come from the gun .. well not true they where in the box but they gave me two boxes of mg caps and that cap strip of red caps.. they where in the box i bought however they had two suzukis and only one had the red caps.. its not part of the kit though i have found.. they were to revolver cap guns.. the kind that the caps go on the end of the bullet.. but i was just tinkering.. i may make a new det pin at this point.. i just dont see why.. kinda pissed really lol.. like i said if i whip the gun in my hand and pull trigger it does fire and puncture the cap.. but when stationary it just recoils no noise.. showing my pics of slide what do i have? side fire or center? also where do i get these roaring washers?

you know looking at your pic my caps look like your top caps.. but more of a round indent pushing through.. now looking at your gun im wondering if mine is working right.. i still dont see why it would as its still silent.. i may end up machining a new pin and getting those washers..

whats the thickness of the roaring plug and the normal plug?

dont mean to keep flooding this thread .. but.. i have some info i wanna show and need help..

this is what my det pin is like in this gun.. is this the same for other people?





should it come out farther then the washer? i can throw my det pin on my home lathe and take away some cone shape to make the thin pin longer..

Cerwyn wrote:

Don't worry about flooding the thread weno! We'll keep this going until we get your Suzuki Beretta firing properly   

To answer your question why your model is so silent when it fires first, bear in mind the cap performs 3 tasks inside the cartridge.

3: When the cap is punctured, noise and smoke escapes out of the cartridge nose and out of the barrel and ejection port

If the cap isn't punctured then very little sound or smoke will be created.

If your fired caps look like the top two in my photo, John's suggestion that the firing pins in the cartridges may be slightly short is definately worth checking out.
The pins must be long enough to strike the charge hard enough to ignite and cycle the gun, but not quite long enough to puncture the cap.
Similarly, the hole in the dished washer may be a fraction small not allowing the cap to puncture and blow through.

This is stuff i need to know.. once i modify a washer or anything there is no going back.. my pins on bullets are pretty much all equal.. i cant make them longer.. they vary between .15mm - .01mm so i cant make them longer.. i was thinking about modifying the chamfer on my det pin so the tip comes out of it more.. i have some acrylic rod here i may make a det pin out of it and test things out.. as for washer i would make it less thicker if need be.. but i really only wanna mess one bullet up.. so knowing the variables on the det pin and washer would help me make a decision..

any update on pics? can you give me pic of det pin in the washer? and thickness of roaring washer and a pic of normal washer next to roaring for height differences

weno wrote:

First Gun i have is a "Suzuki Beretta M92 SB".. what i dont understand is if i am loading my bullets correctly or if my caps are junk..

Fingers crossed for getting this one sorted out :-)
Models are often frustrating, but give you that nice feeling when you somehow figure out what was needed to make one work better.

Suzuki was the first company to release Beretta M92SB model, followed by MGC and Marushin. Suzuki model featured very realistic (compared to other modelguns of the time) mechanism

One troubleshooting idea is to put plasticine (soft modelling clay) inside cartridge. You could use a spent cap, fill it (to the rim) with clay, and install in the model. After firing and careful disassembly, pin impression in clay should give an idea on what is missing.
My ideas are pretty much what has already been mentioned:
- caps: bad batch that doesn't want to behave (clay test should show if they are hit with enough force).
- detonator pin in barrel: too short, deformed after use (shorter or interfering with cartridge top), seated too deep (could happen after use if deformed).
- firing pin in cartridge: broken (if in single cartridge), too short (unlikely, unless wrong type of cartridges are used), rusted (rust and its removal could make this pin shorter).
- chamber: dirt or deformation may prevent cartridge from moving forward freely when struck.
- striking bar/hammer: friction, interference, or weakened spring may prevent bar from pushing cartridge forward enough.

Quote :

Second gun is a MGC Beretta 1934 .. I would like to find proper Bullets and caps for this gun.

You might have seen my review of this model:
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/t2657-mgc-rmi-beretta-1934-metal
It has been modified from original to fire Marushin blowback cartridges (not by me). Modification to the cartridge is described in the review, but I don't know if there was modification of detonator pin in the barrel.
M1934 was very popular among modelgun makers. After the initial non-blowback (cap in tip) version in late 1960s, MGC manufactured a blowback version in 1970s, just before metal modelguns were effectively banned. Western Arms took over and made ABS model, but that's different. It would take some searching and asking around to find cartridges though, as MGC model was not reproduced since 1970s.

weno wrote:

I just looked at it.. You said it was modified but i dont understand what was modified..

I don't know exactly what was modified, as it wasn't done by me, and I don't have a non-modified model for comparison. Usually parts that need modification are cartrdige (as described) and detonator pin in the barrel (length adjusted or tip reshaped for new cartridge type).

My guess would be to:
a) find original MGC cartridges
b) modify Marushin M84 cartridges (start with one) and see if they would work with pin already in the barrel.

Your model seems to look just like mine (although it's hard to compare pins - can't see it at all in chamber on your photo), so I would probably start by getting a Marushin M84 cartridge (more available outside Japan) and fitting it to your model. Original MGC cartridges could probably be found in Japan, through one of forum members (Shazhib).

smootik wrote:

My guess would be to:
a) find original MGC cartridges
b) modify Marushin M84 cartridges (start with one) and see if they would work with pin already in the barrel.

Your model seems to look just like mine (although it's hard to compare pins - can't see it at all in chamber on your photo), so I would probably start by getting a Marushin M84 cartridge (more available outside Japan) and fitting it to your model. Original MGC cartridges could probably be found in Japan, through one of forum members (Shazhib).

Can someone point me to M84 Carts?