Using .50Cal Primers instead of Caps???

Post by bobbybobtroop

I seem to remember seeing something in these forums about using a .50 cal primer as a substitute for a cap. I was thinking of firing some in my m1921 thompson.

Would these primers pose the same currosion danger as caps containing pospherous? (I cannot remember the last time my platoon actually cleaned our .50 cals so I think they may be more friendly to steel).If this is so and given the price difference, I think I'd feel pretty good about buying primers to fire.

Any thoughts would help.
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I like guns, just don't like killing people... so much

Post by Mark

Actually the primers really don't have enough power to cleanly cycle any modelgun! I have tried "magnum" pistol primers and they didn't do any better than the caps that i bought down at the grocery store! Besides, the .50 cal primers are far more expensive than buying the actual modelgun caps from Japan.

ricks wrote:

How about a shotgun primer?

I would not risk your modelgun,cartridges and your FACE using shotgun primers..The best and only way to fire a modelgun is to use the actual Marushin/MGC etc Japanese modelgun caps. Forum members Francky and Shazhib will sell you the caps if you need them.
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Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by bobbybobtroop

lol, rest assured I won't try anything dangerous. I'm glad I have people to bounce ideas off of. I'm very inexperience with model guns but very concerned with safty (I work with the real thing but dont even want them near my home thus my interest in model guns). Some of the questions I ask will probibly seem silly to more experienced model gun owners, but I'm now even more curious about the primer idea for the sake of the questions it brings to mind.

What really interests me is the possibility of firing a model gun without worrying about currosive phosphorous gass eating away at my wepon. For me, that'd make me worry regardless of wheather I knew I'd clean the weapon properly. It would just be nagging me in the back of my head eating up some of the care free fun.

One real question that has to be answered is, do primers release gasses that would be harmfull to steel and zink? They don't seem to harm my M9, or my M4. In fact It's embarassing to say I've gone weeks in theater with out cleaning after firing and no corrosion. I'm pretty sure the phosphorous corrosion thing is unique to model gun caps. I'd be nice to have confirmation about that.

Also, you mentioned danger with shotgun primers. Are primers dangerous to the opperator's face in general or is this just shotgun primers?

You mentioned you used magnum primers unsuccessfully due to the lack of power. My questions to that would be, would they currode your weapon and would it be possible to increase the power by placing double primers in the cartrage like the earlier posts suggest could be done with double caps.

I' know this may damage the weapon as it was not designed for this, but I have to say I'm very curious about the questions it brings up. Again any and all insights would be welcome and appreciated.
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I like guns, just don't like killing people... so much

Post by Spencerman

bobbybobtroop wrote:

Some of the questions I ask will probibly seem silly to more experienced model gun owners

There are no stupid questions, only stupid people.

We ALL started off at the same place, right at the beginning and learn as we go along!
As Spencerman said, no such thing as stupid questions!

I'm planning on buying a decent camera and then hope to start off a section on the basics, loading rounds, cleaning up, hopefully even basic field stripping of some modelguns etc.
There is a wealth of experience out there amongst members, if we all chip in I'm certain we can all benefit somewhere.

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by lasse 47


Se this ones!!
http://www.uniquecanes.com/store/content.php?cs=Armory/WorldWarII/BlowbackModels/PFCsandCaps

May them help u..
Cheers Lasse

Post by Spencerman

cerwyn wrote:

if we all chip in I'm certain we can all benefit somewhere.

As long as I dont have to take too many pictures, mine are still pretty crap! I am getting better after getting my digital camera, but I dont understand them, and I get about one decent picture for every fifty I take. Good god I am glad I dont have to use film anymore!
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Post by bobbybobtroop

I dropped by the unique canes website as directed, however I found caps sold for $15 per 100 when I've seen them for $9.95 per 100 at WWII armory. I'ms certain I can find them cheaper elsewhere. Moreover, the site does not discuss the chemical properties of the caps.

It's not really how to purchase caps that is the question here. I'm interested in the corrosive properties of these caps verse say primers. I'm still not certain if primers would be less corrosive than caps or not. However, It's been my experience that phosphorus eating away at gun metal is not a concern for real fire arms. This may be because particular corrosive gasses are consumed in some way more complete combustion or that phosphorus is not used in these primers. I have absolutely no clue.

Also, the issue of saftey with primers was brought up as well as power problems. I was interested in an exploring whether all primers are dangerous or just the shot gun primers suggested earlier. I had noticed Mark had used magnum primers. I wanted to know if was relatively safe to use any primer or if all primers at all or if primers were by their very nature dangerous. Also, I wanted to know if doubling up on the caps in the cartrages would solve the performance issue.

Granted this may be more esxpensive, but I'ts staying clear of phosphorus gass that really interests me. Again any insights are welcome.
_________________
I like guns, just don't like killing people... so much

Post by nattyjack

ricks wrote:

How about a shotgun primer?

I would be very wary about using 'real' ammunition components in a model gun. A collegue had an mgc thompson confiscated and the lab managed to fire off a blank in it (by adding a firing pin, a nail with plasticine), the police then tried to prosecute for a convertible sec 5 weapon (it can fire on full/semi auto).
the use of the incorrect 'ammunition' in these guns would i am sure open the door to potential prosecution.
It is also, since the vcr bill, difficult to get and I believe illegal to possess ammunition components such as primers without the correct licencing. (I will try to check this one out)
nattyjack

Post by GZ22

Yes. I do believe that you now need to have an FAC in order to purchase primers.

Post by ricks

Good point. I'm sure it would be a no-no in the States, akin to converting to blank-fire, but I'm not familiar with the laws elsewhere. This whole business intrigues me & I was wondering if anyone who could legally try it has done so & with what results...
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Rick

Post by GZ22

I would think that you could only use a primer in a strengthened cartridge, and in a steel modelgun. Overpressure would likely destroy plastic ones, would it not?

Post by bobbybobtroop

wow, that is disconserting. If someone can be prosecuted for having a covertable fire arm, and the MGC thompson has been proven to fire real amo, would that not put all those owning an MGC thompson at risck for confiscation regardless of having primers or actually modifying the weapon? Either these cops were wrong and the MCG without alteration is completely legal in the united states, or they are right and this things are illegal.

But this still does not satisfy my original curiosity above:

1. do primers relaese the same corrosive phosphoruo sgasses as caps?

2. Are primers by nature dangerous or just shot gun primers as stated above?

3. can power issues be solved by doubling up on primers?

I know have two mor questions after this discussion

4. is posession of reloading material illegal without a license?

5. Is the MGC a convertable firearm as stated above and subject to confiscation or are these cops a little slow. Could there have been more to the story than meets the eye?
_________________
I like guns, just don't like killing people... so much

Post by Mark

I will attempt to answer your questions knowing what i know from experience as well from what i have observed elsewhere.

1. Common firearms primers emit carbon traces as well as some other gasses when they are combusted. The "modern" boxer primer sold in the U.S. today is non-corrosive and will not release salts or other corrosive gasses.

2. Primers as explosives, by nature can be dangerous if they aren't respected. Shotgun primers are really no more dangerous than regular primers however, they can and sometimes do have more energy that other pistol or rifle primers.

3. Yes, i suppose that two primers could be used. However, the use of two (or more) primers would add far too much pressure to the cartridge as well as the modelgun.

4. In the U.S. no license is required to posses or use reloading components (in most states/cities that is)

5. Is the MGC a convertible firearm? At this point, the MGC Thompson as well as the other modelguns have not (and hopefully never will be) been classed as being redilly convertible into a firearm. At this point in time, modelguns are considered to be non-guns by the ATFE and therefore not regulated.

There is another few points that i have to make about the use of primers in modelguns.

1. Primers in most cases, are weaker than the original modelgun caps and you need to use more than one to make them work which often leads to an over pressure situation.

2. In most cases, the primers are more expensive than buying the actual modelgun caps.

3. The little brass "anvil" inside the primer needs to be removed before they can be used adds to the hassle of using them.

4. Plastic modelgun caps are designed to be gas seals and are integral to the cartridges design. Primers are intended to endure far higher pressures that modelguns could ever create and they are made out of brass to reflect this and this brass construction does not flex and is fairly obdurate during the combustion of the primer therefore loosing the gas seal that the soft plastic 5~7mm modelgun caps provide.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by nattyjack

The case i mentioned was in the uk and the charges were eventually dropped and the accused found not guilty , but it is still worrying and this was pre vcr bill!!!
nattyjack

Post by bobbybobtroop

That certainly will satisfy my curiosity about primers. Which leads me to a new CAP substitute question. I've been seeing a lot of cryptic and morbid messagry concerning the fate for the Japanese model gun industry. Exactly what Hapened with model guns? Are they in fact out of production? If this is so, one would imagine that caps would not be far behind. If this occurs, do our cap firing model guns become non firing replicas ginven there is no suitable substitute for caps?

Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions, but has anyone begun to think along these lines?
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I like guns, just don't like killing people... so much

It's true that MGC (Model Gun Company) ceased trading this year but Marushin, for example, are still going strong.
Even MGC seem to have made a small scale comeback with the collaboration of other manufacturers if I've understood the situation correctly.

Model guns are still being produced, no need to worry just yet. (I hope)

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.