Muzzle Flash... AGAIN!...!

Well done Claymore!
The video's just fine mate, it clearly demonstrates a really good flash.

Sounds like you've been using the same ultra fine powder as I have. I tried finding Lab Chemical Supplies (kno3) again too but without success.

I'm going to give this a go with a sub machine gun this weekend, I am getting more confident it'll work now!
If I can, I'll try borrowing a video camera and just hope I don't:

a. Smash it to bits with flying shells
b. Set fire to it

I'll try that camping supplier this w/e too for Mg blocks

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by fightdesigner

Nice. Thanks for doing the homework on this, guys.
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Freelance hack... and slash, and gun.

Post by MT01

Wow, great result!
Just imagine what that will look like on full auto - from something like an Ingram with a high rate of fire!

Post by GZ22

Looks nice! After all our efforts, it's finally cracked! So we now know that we achieve the best effect not by placing the Mg powder in the sealed chamber, but by propelling the Mg powder along the barrel, with the flame front behind it created by the burnt cap. Due to the lack of oxygen in the barrel, the Mg powder burns partially, and can only fully ignite when it forms a fuel/air mixture at the mouth of the muzzle, just in the same way as unburnt powder does in a real firearm. The styrene helps to ensure that a source of ignition is still available by the time the Mg powder leaves the muzzle, Look at the shape of the muzzle flash, usually conical in a perfect spread.

(Mark - feel free to edit this if it's a little off-topic)

See link below for a little hint on the science of fuel/air mixtures. The example uses liquid, but the same science applies to powders (that's why you get a lot of explosions in wood and flour and custard factories). We professional pyrotechnicans have carried out research into the use of a firework that contains no gunpowder or oxidizer, just a main burster charge and aluminium, along with a tiny igniter charge. The burster spreads the metal powder out and after a pre-determined number of seconds, when the fuel/air mix is at it's most flammable, the iginter goes and you get the wonderful flash and bang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk

Can't wait to see it in an SMG!

Post by Claymore

thanks for the explanation but i now feel like Homer simpson, no disrespect GZ, i do appreciate the technical side but its a bit over my head. That said technically would more powder make any difference or less, i got the feeling when firing that less was better.
That said yes this system works and how easy is it, why the hell in all our conversations on this did this simple way not occur to us.

Anyway i hope lefthandgunner will join the forum as i bet he can give a good few pointers on making our models fire better and how to adapt them.

Post by GZ22

The best thing is less, as too much will just spray unburnt powder around. Sorry if I went off on one there with the 'science bit' Claymore mate.

I guess the reason we overlooked this easy way was because like in many problem solving exercises, we tend to forget the simple things and go straight for more complex remedies, assuming that the easy ones have already been tried.

I had been trying the same method but using Marushin MP40 rounds and plain paper discs rather than styrene. The Mg powder was placed in front of the cap in the same place as in the MGC rounds' piston.
I hadn't quite got there, maybe the paper was wrong, styrene could very well work now though.

It hadn't occured to me that flame from the ignited cap could get past the o-ring seal to light up the powder. So I didn't think it worth persuing!
At least with the Marushin rounds the firing pin pierces the cap and allows flame and sparks through to ignite the powder (in theory anyway!)

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by rizzo

Claymore!!!!!!!! That's insane!! Well done, I'ma try with my M9

edit-

Tried it





Very very very cool. I experienced the odd misfire, as shown in Claymore's vid, any ideas on preventing this?

Also i didn't use styrofoam or whatever it is, i just used some tissue paper. Seemed to work fine.

Post by ljerr2

Wow! What a great effect! It really adds another dimension to enjoying the shooting of these models! Is the barrel on an M4 too long to get any flash? ANyone going to try it?

Post by Claymore

well done rizzo mate, how much powder did you use, i only used a small amount, as for the misfires i have no idea apart from the wad you use to keep the powder in just takes enough force out of the hammer.
Where do you get your powder from as the place i got mine seems to have closed, i recently bought some more with aluminium in it (all i could get) i thought maybe that might spark more but its completly inert.

Post by MT01

Yeah - can't seem to get to the Kn03 site.

However, Mark mentioned that you can get shavings from magnesium firestarter kits.

I have just ordered one from ebay. Here is a link if you are in uk:

http://sports.search.ebay.co.uk/magnesium_Camping_W0QQsacatZ16034

Or just search for "magnesium" under "camping"

These kits allow you to shave magnesium off an alloy block, and are different to the 'firesteel' magnesium firelighters.

Post by rizzo

Yeah claymore, i got mine from kno3 Had it nearly a year now

But yeah, that's the only reason i could suss for any misfires, so i'm going to experiment with different thickness' and layers of tissue paper. Defintaely very cool tho, so happy I can now have muzzle flash from the m9. Who knows, even the uzi might cooperate...

As to amount of powder... um not an accurate measure, just kinda sprinkled it in, not loads tho...

Post by Claymore

I think the less the better some of my scoops had more than less and the flash was no better but it left a lot of magnesium residue. Just not sure where i will get new powder from now, it will also be interesting to see if coarser rather than finer (which mine is) will produce a better or worse effect, scraping of the block would make it very coarse i think.

Post by Mark

I would think that the finer magnesium powder would produce a slightly better flash as the powder might have a better dispersal before it ignites. Besides, if the powder is too coarse it might interfere with the detonator or piston movement.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Mark

ljerr2 wrote:

Wow! What a great effect! It really adds another dimension to enjoying the shooting of these models! Is the barrel on an M4 too long to get any flash? any one going to try it?

I might try it in my M4 if I get the chance. The barrel length might as always, be the ultimate problem. The magnesium "flash" might not be seen very well as the effect might take only a few milliseconds to occur and the length might hide the effect.
On shorter or larger diameter gun barrels, the effect will be far more visible I would think as only a certain amount of magnesium powder can be added to any given cartridge. Certain other modelguns like the Marushin Uzi (late with the "bypass") might never obtain a good muzzle flash due to the twists and turns that the flash would have to navigate to get out of the muzzle.

I really though I was going to send in a video of my Grease Gun spouting flame and flash today but I failed miserably!

I put about rounds through it loaded with a mixture of some using styrene, others using tissue, with the fine Mg powder from kno3
The styrene can't be theright type as it melts rather than burns.
Jamming after each round was down to melted styrene and then tissue build up in the chamber and around the pin.

The Mg loaded caps don't give the same loud bang and powerful kick the normal ones do so I'd guess my small scoops might even be too much powder?

I fired 30 normally loaded rounds and about 10 achieved a full auto burst, the rest would start misfiring and not ejecting.
Om stripping down afterwards, 8 or so of the caps hadn't ignited so that's another reason for not ejecting. I must have a poor batch of caps as not igniting is becoming more regular.

Next step will be the laminate floor underlay GZ mentioned and very little powder I think?

Dissapointed or what???

Cerwyn


[/i]
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by rizzo

That's unlucky Conversely, when using the mg filled carts on the m9, a really deep, resonant boom was produced, as opposed to it being almost silent without the mg. Did you experience this claymore?

Post by Claymore

Yep, i would not say it was loud but it was a deeper sound than the normal "pop" the m9 makes, the 45 was better as that makes a loud crack anyway add that to the sound the mg makes and it improves things sound wise.
Pity about that cerwyn the grease gun slams round very forcefully on to the chamber so you would of thought its one model that would work well, i will have to try myself on this one, i was thinking of the ingram but i use open rounds so i know that will be a pain abd probably not work.

As you say Clay, the M3A1 really kicks that bolt hard and it's a really good firing model usually.
Ideal candidate for the Mg I thought.

Maybe I was beaten by a duff batch of caps, but I was convinced the barrel is short enough to work. It vents well going by the smoke anyway.

I've an MGC Ingram MAC11 that uses cp rounds, barrel length is very short, maybe that would be worth a go eh?

I'm certain there'll be another supplier of Mg powder somewhere if kno3 have gone. It's only a chemical substance after all and there's an industrial demand for it so it's bound to be available somewhere.

If shaving Mg blocks is the only alternative the photo GZ posted gives us an idea how small to make them. If that's what our Japanese friend uses then it workes for him!

Would the shavings grind down usin pestle and mortar?

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by GZ22

I'd prefer to stick with the shavings that Left Hand Gunner uses, it's really not that safe to grind Mg, it can ignite easily - and if it ignites do NOT throw water onto the fire - it will explode!

Yep, water and magnesium definately don't make a safe combination.

Thanks for the warning against grinding too GZ!

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Jez_JRP

Attempting to grind Mg with a pestle & mortar is not dangerous, just pointless as it doesn't serve to reduce the particle size. There is no way you can ignite Mg this way.

Also, the danger of explosion is only present if you have a lot of Mg dust present in moist air. It's a very very small risk indeed.

I may not be a modelgun expert but pyrotechnic chemicals is something I do know a little bit about, and you're worrying too much

Post by fightdesigner



I'm curious about the mixed reports on using the thin padding foam stuff- any clarification on what works and what doesn't, or why? I would think any polystyrene type stuff would melt, not burn, but I could be wrong, especially if it's one of those cellulose-based packing materials... but I've only seen those in 'peanut' form before.
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Freelance hack... and slash, and gun.

Post by Mark

The padding "stuff" can vary from cornstarch to polypropylene! It all depends on the countries environmental laws and regulations. The thin white closed-cell foam that some people are using is most likely a form of polypropylene.

The melting point of materials as well as their flammability is the question here as a material that melts and creates a sticky "goo" on the detonator or worse, the inside of the cartridge would be a bad thing with the reliability of the gun.

I would before using any material check the flammability of it by burning some of it first to see what residue it leaves (if any)
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by rizzo

Flightdesigner- I've used tissue paper fine with mine. Leaves some resisdue inside the cartridge, but it's quite flaky, and just shakes out.