Tanaka Works S&W M1917 HE2 model gun

Just bought the Tanaka 4" "Indiana Jones style" M1917 HE2 from Todd's Costumes in California, USA....nice company, speedy delivery and good price -- and I saved myself a bundle on shipping from Japan...about $120 total savings.

However, I have to say I'm VERY disappointed with the gun's performance out the the box. Many, many misfires on the first 12 shots or so. (I'm using MGC 7mm caps and loading them correctly). When the gun did fire, the top right side frame screw popped out! I've tried screwing it back into the frame, but the screw just spins in place...unbelievable.

Second, unlike the soft, spongy removable orange blaze paint that came coated on the muzzle of a Marushin Enfield revolver I bought from a reputable dealer in Japan last summer, the orange paint on this gun was hard and enamel-like...and MUCH more difficult to remove. VERY disappointing. I just could not bring myself to use paint thinner for fear of melting the ABS barrel. I successfully scratched most of it off with my fingernail, but it looks like the "midnight gold" finish has come off as well. (FYI: I lawfully have a theatrical waiver to do this and use substitute removable orange barrel plugs when I transport model and blank-fire guns. Anyway, I have a bunch of questions regarding these concerns:

1. What shoud I do about the loosened frame screw on the M1917? It just doesn't seem to stay in.

2. How can I restore the Tanaka factory "midnight gold" finish without ruining the gun? Does Tanaka sell model gun spray paint for touch-ups?

3. I'm thinking about ordering some model guns from Den Trinity and Guys n Guns in HK -- what kind of blaze orange paint do they use for shipping....soft or hard? Can it be removed easily without ruining the appearance of the gun?

4. Suggestions / fine-tuning advice on how to make the gun more reliable? (Fewer misfires).


Any help out there would be appreciated -- much thanks!

nstgprops

Hello there nstgprops and welcome to the forum,

I'm sorry to learn of your dissappointing experiences with your Tanaka modelgun, there's not much worse than spending a lot of money expecting something superb only to find problems right away.

I'm not sure what the "Midnight Gold" finish is ... could you take a photo or two and post them up please Having just checked Francky's site (www.franckys-modelgun.com) , I see there's a "Fake Steel" finish, looks good too , is this what you have
I'm sure Francky or Shazhib can advise if Tanaka provide "touch-up" compounds but if not, you may have to try re-bluing with compounds suitable for HWABS
Francky has supplied these compounds in the past.

In my experience, DenTrinity and Guys n Guns are very approachable and will answer any questions asked. They'll apply orange paints to replicas being shipped to countries that demand it. They'll happily tell you what they use (and how to remove it)

Missfires could be caused by faulty caps... occassionally a bad batch will get through, thankfully not too often.
Any moisture caused by oil or grease contaminaton used during loading, water either from damp cartridge parts after cleaning or humidity can ruin caps.

Sticking components in the cartridge If the "primer" can't push the cap onto the Detonator Pin hard enough it can missfire at the first attempt. Re-cocking the hammer and firing again will probably ignite a good cap if that's the case

Faults in the firing mechanism... I had some problems with a HWABS Kokusai revolver that gradually got worse. The gun fired reliably initially, but slowly, as the hammer's plastic firing pin started to wear and flatten, missfires were regular. The cure was to replace the hammer with a custom metal one. Instant improvement, the gun hasn't missed a single round since.
As yours has missfired during the first 12 attempts, it certainly shouldn't be caused by wear so soon.
Perhaps the hammer isn't dropping hard enough, or far enough. If you swing the cylinder out, you should see the hammer's firing pin protruding through the back of the frame. It should be far enough through to strike and push the primer and cap forwards to the Det.Pin.
If the hammer's out of line and leaning to one side, this could be caused by a misplaced pivot pin not supporting the hammer properly. The loose frame screw you mentioned might just be contributing by not holding the frame together tight enough.
Without seeing the screw, it's difficult to guess but if it screws right through the frame there'll either be a tapped hole or nut for it to screw into. Either the tapped hole has stripped it's thread or the nut's missing
A photo might help identify the problem if you can manage it please.

I hope the above helps you, but don't hesitate to ask if you need any more help. We're only too happy to try

Much thanks, Cerwyn! Posting some photos soon to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Francky is great - I bought my Enfield Police No2Mk1 from him last summer. I seriously considered buying the Tanaka "fake steel" finish M1917 from him at Gunbroker.com recently....but at $288 plus $40 in shipping, it was just simply more than I could afford to spend. And when I saw the same gun at Todd's Costumes for under $200...well it was pretty much a no-brainer for me. It's weird -- the guns are identical in every way except for the "midnight gold" finish ...which is a perfect way to describe the look: basically gunmetal black with a tinge of brown / yellow...almost cepia -- very subtle. (the "fake steel" looks like it has more blue in it.) Anyway, Todd's specializes in Indiana Jones movie gear and props, so this finish may have been custom ordered to match the M1917 HE2 featured in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Ironically, I didn't the expect the blaze orange paint to be so fanatically and permanently applied...the Enfield I got from Francky was coated in the same way...but I could at least remove the paint without damaging the finish...frustrating. Might have something to do with the state importation laws -- California is pretty strict in that regard.

Thanks for the 411 on DenTrinity and G&G...but what I'd really like is to hear from someone on the forum who has actually ordered one of their guns to get a better idea of what their orange paint prep is like.

Re: the misfires -- I don't think it's the caps -- bought them brand new. And I keep the MG caps I already have in ziploc baggies with moisture-absorbing silicon capsules. I believe the misfires are firing mechanism-related -- really appreciate your insight on this...(thanks for the Kokusai hammer link)... Just swung the cylinder out -- indeed, the hammer's firing pin does NOT protrude through the back of the frame...instead it sits flush...(you'll see from the pictures I'm posting) ...definitely not far enough through to consistently strike and push the primer and cap forwards to the Det.Pin. Agh! I'm loath to have a slighty longer firing pin custom made and installed...doesn't Tanaka test fire their model guns? If so they would have seen the loose frame screw too (a stripped thread I suspect)...supremely annoying. Pretty appalled with the lack of quality control here. What would you suggest? Don't think I can afford to have someone make these adjustments....and I suspect the do-it-yourself learning curve would be too high in my case. Anyway, be great to get your thoughts -- thanks again for your reply!

nstgprops

PS -- Also looking to buy some checkered wood grips for this model if you know anyone...the plastic grips are nice in detail but feel cheap.

It's my pleasure to help out if I possibly can, you are more than welcome

Francky is a superb supplier highly recommended by everyone. It's not often Francky is beaten on price , this must be a first I even checked Todd's Costumes' website to check ... yes indeed $199 for this M1917
Checking through Francky's site, l can't find any reference to "midnight gold" finish so you may well be correct, maybe Todd's have commisioned someone to refinish the models this way.
If that's the case I'd guess the models are completely stripped, original finish removed and then coated with this "Midnight Gold" effect
I know that quality control in some modelgun manufacturers just prior to their closure (Hudson in particular) was quite poor but I'd expect Tanaka's Build quality to be good. It's true to say some of their HWABS Automatic pistols are prone to breaking but stripped threads doesn't sound likely IMHO.
I wonder if Todd's managed to strip a thread during reassembly after applying the new finish. Similarily, if the hammer mechanism has not been assembled correctly perhaps this could be the cause of your missfires
During the 1970s, Japanese modelguns being exported were rendered incapable of firing anything by the factories. MGC's 68 MP40 being one such example. The thought did cross my mind that perhaps your M1917 had been "converted" in a similar way but as Todd's Costumes sell these models as fully functioning cap firing modelguns there's no chance they've modified the model. One way to stop them firing would've been to shorten the hammer's firing pin.
It would be very helpful if we knew the exact length of your model's firing pin. This could be compared to a known firing example.
Being so new, and as missfires occurred during the first 12 rds, wear shouldn't really be a factor. I'd still like to know how long your pin is compared to a good one.
If we find your Pin is too short, then a new one could be bought and fitted. If it's correct, then I'd start looking at assembly and correct adjustment.
Do you have Tanaka's Instruction Manual If delving inside modelguns' internals isn't something you're comfortable with then a scanned copy of the instructions would help one or more of us here to guide you through that.

California is pretty strict concerning replica guns. Red or Orange Muzzles are mandatory so if Todd's have refinished the model in Midnight Gold, they've applied the Orange Tip too. It's possible they've used some indelible paint or suchlike that's not intended to be removed.

It would be worth asking Todd's in the first instance if they could refinish your barrel back to Midnight Gold. If not, then asking Francky if he can provide a bluing compound suitable for HWABS. He did stock a range of different compounds that can give very good results. It may mean completely stripping the model down though.

DenTrinity have plain walnut grips for the M1917 available... check www.dentrinity.com then "overseas shop". Next click "Product" and "Collector". Scroll down to Modelgun Accessories.
You'll see these grips on page 2, product ref MGAC095
Francky would know if Mulberry Field or Craft Apple Works have chequred wood grips available now.

Thanks again for your reply, Cerwyn. I'm adding photos of my M1917 below, including a close-up of the hammer. Now that I've scratched the midnight gold finish off with orange blaze barrel paint, I doubt very much that Todd's will take it back for an exchange...I've probably voided the warranty, but I suppose, it can't hurt. I think replacing the firing pin might be the best solution for correcting the misfires...no idea about how to go about this though. Looking at it, I don't see any way to remove it from the hammer (no screw / hext nuts). I'll take a photo of the instructions and upload them if you think that will be helpful. Let me know what you think. Much thanks on the wood grips info too!

-nstgprops

I've been watching your posts, and I sympathise with your frustration. ''
If you have voided your warranty then I'm sure we'll be able to help fix the issues - the firing pin can be removed judging from one of your photos, there seems to be a rolled pin on the left side that can be removed to release it???
If so, making or installing a longer pin isn't a major. But as Cerwyn says, an accurate measurement would help.''

The paint job repair means a bit of work. My suggestion is to totally remove the paint from the barrel & fore sightl; highly polish and then re-blue it using gun blue chemicals. I have found gun blue paste works best for me; with the careful rubbing with fine steel wool and wash with BOILING water between each application of blue.

The finish darkens each time, and I'm sure you can get it to a close enough deep finish. Then oiled and maintained to keep it looking good!
This fix would be a bit of a chore - but very satisfying if you succeed.
By just doing the barrel, any differences between the receive finish will not be too obvious.

If you check out some of my repair posts on this forum, they might give you some ideas to try?? ''

Good Luck!

Kiwigunner

But no commercial gun blue can achieve this "midnight gold" colour - then might be it is best to reblue the entire gun again...

Thank you for the photos, they show the "Midnight Gold" finish parfectly. They also show your firing pin problem perfectly too.

It's a nice looking finish isn't it Very nice, it's such a damned shame that the orange muzzle had to be applied in the first place.

I've managed to re-blue steel magazines to a good dark blue/black colour very effectively with Birchwood Casey Perma Blue paste. Note however this paste only works on steel
Birchwood Casey Aluminium Black has given me great results on Zinc Alloy commonly used for modelguns or parts. Again this compound only works on Zinc Alloys and should work on Aluminum, Brass and Copper too.

Your M1917 is made of moulded Heavy Weight ABS plastic so you need a suitable compound to achieve a good finish.
Here's some further reading for you:

https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/t682-bluing-hw-modelguns?highlight=bluing+abs

https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/t632-modelgun-bluing-or-coating?highlight=bluing+abs

Although the above links aren't definiative guides as such, there are useful tips in there. I understand that Francky can supply a Bluing Compound that works very well on HWABS. He would be the man to contact I think unless anyone knows of a suitable compound and how to get the best results
Perhaps there is a liquid or paste available in Japan now that will give HWABS this metallic finish.

Your firing pin doesn't look as if it's been flattened or damaged, so perhaps it's an adjustment problem. I think kiwigunner's right, remove the roll pin and the Firing Pin and most likely its' spring should pull out of the hammer.
Scanned images of the modelgun's instructions should tell us how to remove the hammer and it's spring, plus how to set the trigger mechanism etc to make the hammer fall as intended.

We'll look forwards to seeing the instructions and take it from there

I'm trying to "think outside the square".....
so not sure if this will help or not - but apparently "Midnight Gold" is available as an automotive paint. ''
This link explains:
http://www.ehow.com/list_7526215_1968-camaro-car-colors.html

Failing to repair your gun with a chemical or paint job, (possibly a whole gun paint job??) as a last resort I would just remove the foresight (if poss), cut off the offending part of the barrel (carefully re-crowning it) and reattach the sight. ''
Of course you'd have to touch up the barrel end and repaint the sight! But that'd be less noticeable...

If that failed you could cut your losses and sell it off as a "customized" replica pistol; ''
and purchase a replacement!

All in all I guess you're really disappointed with the whole affair - and while we can learn from experience - some experiences we can do without! ''

Kiwigunner

You're in the US - maybe a real barrel - it might be too heavy for the plastic frame.

They are surprisingly plentiful, I have bought replacement barrels for several older model revolvers.
Gunsamerica - gunbroker, etc.

But...plastic modelgun revolvers like this have the barrel & the frame made in one piece (i.e. cannot swap the barrel like the real one) without mentioning getting a real barrel with such finishing...

Kiwi's inspiration of getting some car paint for the job can be an option - such as some touch-up pen...or maybe get some paints from Hobby Shop then mix the colour DIY (trial & error - and extreme patience required)

You're right, on both counts, Jim - I don't have any plastic modelguns, so I probably shouldn't have joined the discucssion, lol.

ISS props in Sunland, have started finishing all of their rubber/stunt firearms with a really deep shiny metallic metal finish, that is incredible, they look stunning, I wonder if this is a process they could help the OP with.
They've taken it to an art form, from where it was only a few years ago.
I saw the new one's for the first time on the set of "Green Hornet" - really super finish.


http://issprops.com/manufacturing

They're a lot more expensive to replace now!

JJ

Thanks to ALL for your advice and suggestions on this thread so far! Posting the SW M1917 instructions soon...just have to scan and upload them.

UPDATE: I called Todd's Costumes: The "midnight gold" is a custom finish -- exclusive to Todd's for the M1917 (though I have seen the MG finish advertised on other Tanaka guns). To the best of their knowledge, the finish is applied in some special process...not just sprayed on, so I think the prospect of finding a touch-up paint in the midnight gold is nil....though Todd's is going to give me the email for the English-speaking Tanaka rep in Japan to inquire about refinishing the barrel there (an expensive ordeal no doubt if you include shipping). BTW - the almost impossible to remove blaze orange paint was applied at Tanaka Works in Japan (not in California, USA).

Regarding the hammer pin not clearing the cylinder plate to properly detonate the cap -- no customer complaints from Todd's (though I doubt the sales person would know) ...I find it incredible that this model gun (and how many dozens more) left the factory without a prototype being tested for misfires...it seems inconceivble, as it very much looks to be a flaw in the gun's design...I don't think the loose / missing frame screw has much to do with the firing problem. So, providing I can remove the hammer pin and measure it -- who out there among you can custom-make and sell me a replacement pin? I'd love to get a parts / labor estimate in US dollars if possible.

Ultimately, I think I'll be forced to strip the enire gun of the MG finish and start from scratch Can someone please send me a link with explicit instructions for bluing ABS plastic (not metal) -- most appreciated, thanks. Most important -- this gun needs to be reliable as a working stage prop more than a pretty show piece...though it'd be great to have the finish look consistent.

nstgprops

Plenty of information you got :-) It looks that Tanaka custom-processes models before exporting them, making special finish, as well as orange tips required to comply with USA law.

I hope that you will get your model restored sooner than later.

When you get the specs for the firing pin, email (PM) them to me for a quote. I can probably make one fairly quickly and case-harden it, i n a couple of hours. ''
It would be the postage each way (about US$8- $12 x 2) that would be the major cost factor.

I haven't got a Startrek Transporter beam anymore. Sold it to to s passing Klingon buy more model guns. ''

So you may find someone here closer to home who will do it for you.

Kiwigunner

Just came across this via a link in this forum:
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMA10/
On page 112 there's an article about this guy under "Notta 1911":
http://otonagai-mg.com/

The web site is in Japanese but some here can help translate it....
but this guy customises ABS modelguns to look like real steel.

Maybe his web site offers a repair service that could help???

I have no idea of cocts, but the web site loks of interest!

Kiwigunner

Wow I've just checked the japanese blog and those guys are doing a crazy job! I'm just staring at their Marushin S&W 586 here:
http://vincent-m2.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2009/10/-m586-6-0b57.html

and although I'm aware of my serious noobness, this shows how much you can work on the kit base.