MUZZLE FLASH

(see also https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-general-discussion-f1/muzzle-flash-again-t748.htm for more discussions)

Muzzle Flash Effect

see Video on http://www.geocities.jp/ac_cobra289/index.html

Post by GZ22


Some nice work there. Having given certain sections of the videos closer inspection with my 'professional hat' on, I can say that he is certainly using Mg to produce the muzzle flash effects. It burns with a solid bright white flame when burned in O2, but the flame colour should be noted in these instances as not being truly white - this is because the Mg doesn't burn 100% white in air as it reacts with available N2, forming amongst other things, oxides and nitrides of Mg. The second point is that the Mg is contaminated with trace amounts of Na, hence the orange tinge - which is beneficial in the case of modelguns!

Hello All...

The elusive muzzle flash (well elusive to me anyway!)

I've been trying adding magnesium powder into the cartridges in varying quantities.
By placing the cap into the brass case, either adding a light dusting of magnesium or filling the cap (almost) then carefully pushing it home using pvc tubing will sometimes give some flash from the ejection port but nothing worth mentioning from the muzzle.
Yes, I only try it on open barrel models!
Should powder be placed in the detonator chamber and barrel?
Would any flame produced inside the cartridge be trapped in there by the internal piston and o-ring together with the combustion gases?

How the hell do these guys get all that flash/flame out of the muzzle?
If anything, I don't think quite that much is necessary (not realistic really despite being impressive), I'd be happy with half that!

Do you have any suggestions GZ22 please?

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Claymore



I dont think these guys use standard rounds, if you look at Franckys site he has triple cap rounds and some double cap inners and possibly there are other types of rounds you can get in Japan, so i would think that the rounds used are something like these where you can put a dollop of mag powder in them but not put it on the cap that gives the b/back power, so you would possibly have 2 caps in the round + a chamber for the powder, hence the effect. I just dont see you getting that much and such consistant flash out of the standard b/back round.

Hiya Claymore,

I see what you mean mate, obvious problems with the standard rounds is that any gases created by ignition of the cap should remain sealed inside the round to give effective blow-back power.
Any gases (and flame if any) escaping out of the round would mean lost seal and then less blowback.
What might just work is the Marushin MP40 rounds... Quite often the detonator and firing pin punches a hole through the cap. It doesn't affect blowback pressure, the MP40 fires well and consistently. I wonder if the barrel is too long to allow flash through? I bet it is, knowing my luck!

Didn't you get some of those triple cap rounds awhile back? Did you ever get time to try them out?

Going by general opinion on the forum using double caps in rounds designed for one ain't a good idea. Damaged rounds being the most common, broken guns is one I remember when my Marui P38 blew apart!
I wonder what sort of stresses those triple and double cap rounds put on the guns?

Reemo did manage to achieve a good effect with his M1911 if I recall. Another posting on the forum showed computer generated flash edited into various videos but these Japanese guys are managing to get real flash, quite probably, as you say, with special rounds.

Maybe I should just be content that the gun works, the military spends money on Flash Hiders for concealment after all!

BTW, there are several links on the site you flagged up, is there an easy way to translate Japanese to English?


Cerwyn

_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by allenb

Cerwyn - Easiest way for translations would be altavista bablefish

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Then stick the web address for the site you want to translate into the 2nd box, select japanese to english and click the button

I actually use an translator that integrates into the Firefox browser, but that's a little more work to get going!

Hope this helps mate

Post by rizzo

Time to dig out my pics again

I have disagree with GZ22 about it being pure MG.

The flash from the models on that website seems to be far more 'gunpowdery' than magnesium. The flame is almost orange, compared to this-



Which was a cap full of MG and the gunpowder already on the cap. Far white and 'cleaner' flame than in the website owner's vids. He might be using some sort of mixture... impossible to tell exactly based purely on the flash. Someone want to email him?


I have the same problem as Cerwynn with my M9, get absolutely no flash out the barrel, all from the ejection port.

Post by GZ22

Here's an interesting link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_flash

Cerwyn:

As far as I'd say, the best way to create an effective, reproducible muzzle flash would be to contain a very small amount of Mg within the cartridge. Literally just dusted into the cartridge at the end where the cap faces upwards. Although I've not tried this myself, thinking about the physics of it makes sense:

Because you're not physically putting the Mg directly into the cap, when the sealed chamber fills with flame and expanding gases, the partially burning Mg is dispersed along the length of the barrel, creating a fuel/oxidiser mixture which, when it reaches the right proportions, will ignite, creating a flame front that extends along, and beyond the muzzle, and also backward as the slide moves forwards (if the correct amount of powder and conditions exist).

Notice from the videos on that site, many of them clearly show that the volume of gases is so great that the flame front extends in both directions (backward & forward) - mainly due to the presence of a significant amount of Mg.

Too much Mg will be quite a heavy weight for the expanding gases to thrust right out of the barrel, and it will mostly ignite close to the cart and the flame front will be expelled backwards through the rear of the cart.

If anyone can lend any weight to (or disprove) this theory by trying it out it would be most welcome. I no longer have any modelguns apart from my shotgun. I will certainly try it out on that this weekend and report back.

As Rizzo correctly says - the flash you can see is not one of pure Mg. Almost certainly contaminated with Na. Even a trace amount of Na in a pyrotechnic composition will spoil it's intended colour and taint it orange.

Last edited by GZ22 on Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post by Mark

Hi Rizzo,

I think that the somewhat larger detonator in your M9 could be blocking your "muzzle flash" The barrels in the 9mm size and smaller seem to be somewhat blocked by either the detonator or the the surrounding material of the barrel. The .45 ACP (especially the "real size" .45) seems to have better muzzle flash due, I think to the larger area inside the barrel for the combustion process to occur. Also, the somewhat larger internal area in the larger barrels also can "clear out" the fired gasses better.

The flash depends on the amount of oxygen present in the barrel I would think.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by GZ22

mark wrote:

The flash depends on the amount of oxygen present in the barrel I would think.

Absolutely correct Sir.
I like the idea of the detonator perhaps being a factor in all this. It gives us something tangible to work with. Most interesting.

Post by Mark

Some 9mm Modelguns I would think could be helped by opening up the area just ahead of the chamber while trying to retain enough material to support the detonator. The enlargement of the area could be minimal but the effect might be intensified. Also, small grooves cut into the detonators tip might just work if they aren't cut too deep and they are done at right angles.

I am sure that the flash effect can be intensified with a little more experimentation with the detonators/barrels.

As for the cartridges, there are some good internal designs that would lend themselves to a nice flash effect. I agree with Cerwyn that the Marushin Uzi/MP40 cartridges will possibly prove to be an excellent flash cartridge.

The various flash powders that we have so far employed have been self oxidizing but even so, the amount of available oxygen in the barrel is very dependent on the size of the cartridge, chamber, detonator and muzzle. If the first shot is good then each succeeding cartridge has less and less available oxygen if the barrel doesn't vent out the fired gasses very well.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Lots of interesting points there chaps, certainly food for thought.

I'm going to have a go at this with my MP40 Marushin rounds this weekend.
If I've understood GZ22 and Rizzo correctly, if I give the insde of the cartridge a light dusting of Mg powder, insert the washer, cap then add a further quantity of Mg into the cap, then hopefully detonation of the cap will ignite the powder sealed inside, any leaking gases or flame passing around the caps' edges or more likely through the hole the det pin punches through the cap should then ignite the powder in the cartridge nose.
The detonator chamber in my MP40 is drilled to vent smoke out through the barrel so with any luck...

I'll report back asap

Thanks for the info lads, and good to see you back Rizzo, where've you been mate?

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by rizzo

Mark,

Definately agree with your theory on the size of the barrels. The .45 barrel is quite open, whereas you can barely see light through the m9 one. Might experiment with 'opening up' the inside, but it's difficult to work in such a confined space...

good luck cerwyn!

I didn't get the time I wanted to try the MP40 rounds as I'd hoped but if anybody else has the time or inclination...

What I thought was putting the dished washer into the cartridge, placing a circle of paper (just normal writing paper) over the washer to seal the hole, drop in a quantity of Mg powder, then the cap, add a bit more powder, then screw on the end cap...
The paper should stop the powder dropping out whilst still be easy enough to pierce when the det pin hits it.

If enough sparks pass forwards past or through the cap, it might be enough to ignite all the powder?

I'll keep trying, one of us will get there surely eventually!

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by rizzo

Might be an idea. I was trying MG in my marushin uzi cartridges... unfortunately the cap sits 'backwards', away from the detonator as it were, so i might try your method for that. It's a long barrel tho... so might only get it out of the ejection port.

I tried powdering some MG on the barrel of my kokusai revolver, got a nice flash from that (obv only last one shot tho). No luck doing that with the uzi, so it looks as if the sparks never reach that far up...

Hiya Rizzo

What I'm hoping is that the cartridge's firing pin punctures through the cap, allowing hot gases and hopefully enough sparks /flame to pass through into the cartridge nose thus igniting the powder there.

Another possibility is that enough sparks/flame in and around the detonator chamber and ejection port coming from the burning cap will ignite any Mg powder blown out of the cartridges nose and into the det' chamber and barrel by the blowback action.

Clutching at straws a bit here but "suck it and see" is the only answer. The shorter the barrel the better of course but the only gun I've got that fires Marushin rounds is my MP40. (My M16 and XM177 barrels are even longer, my UZI's been modified to use P220 rds)
Just thought actually that my Mauser M712 has a short barrel but it's an absolute sod to clean. This Mg gets the gun and cartridges really dirty.

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by rizzo

Tried it with my marushin uzi, no luck, just huge sparks from the ejection port- very pretty but not very realistic.

I tried another method...

http://www.rizzomedia.com/video/uziflashloquality.wmv

No mg, just photoshop

Hiya Rizzo

Possibly the UZI isn't the best model to achieve muzzle flash from. I'm sure the detonator chamber and barrel aren't directly in line to start with, and also the det. pin is pretty much encased in the det. chamber. I think I'm right in saying that smoke has to flow through a by-pass system to vent from the muzzle so as the flash from Mg burns so quickly it may have 'gone' by the time it's worked it's way through the maze of by-passes.
Your success with good flash using Colt .45 pistols will be helped by the direct line from det. chamber straight out of the muzzle?

I'm hoping that my MP40 might just work because the bottom of the chamber has been drilled and it leads straight out through the barrel. Hopefully the barrel is short enough!

How did you get that deep booming firing sound on your UZI video? Is that the same kind of enhancement as your Colt .45 vid? Sounds great that!

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by rizzo

used sounds from rainbow six

I think you're right about the chamber and barrel alignment, as well as the make up of the shells. I don't think digital flash looks too bad tho, and it's easy to do- you already have ejecting shells and smoke etc, so the overal effect is fairly 'realistic'.

Would be nice to get it real tho

Post by Mark


The fact that the late Marushin Uzi barrel isn't a one piece, does complicate matters. The bypass does cause a bit of a problem as the gasses cool considerably as they negotiate the twists and turns of the bypass. The short barrels on many modelguns help in the production of muzzle flash as the expanding gasses are relatively still hot and expanding as they exit the muzzle.

The largest problems that I see with reliable spark/flame production from the muzzle of any chosen modelgun is:

1. The cartridge design.

2. The detonator.

3. The barrels internal diameter.

4 The barrel length.

5. The flash mixture composition.

Sparks/flash from a real gun muzzle are created by un-burned powder igniting by the muzzle as there is more oxygen available at the muzzle. When the charge in a real firearm is ignited, the powder burns up the available oxygen in the cartridge case before the bullet moves.

However, the expanding gasses are hot enough to ignite the un-burned powder flakes but cannot due to the lack of oxygen.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

I had a few short minutes to spare today so discovered that paper circles cut using a standard office hole puncher fit inside 7mm cases perfectly.
Good start!
So Marushin cartridge (MP40) with dished washer inserted...
Paper disc to seal the hole...
Drop a very small scoop of Mg powder into the cartridge...
7mm MG Cap pushed in with a dusting of Mg powder inside it and pushed home to meet the washer...
Load and Fire.
Crap.
Barely a sound but enough power to achieve blowback, ejection and re-cocking though. No perceivable flash either
Taking the cartridge apart confirmed the cap had ignited but the Mg powder between cap and washer had compacted enough to stop the pins puncturing the cap (which is what I'd hoped for)
However, pushing the burnt cap out of the still hot round created a few sparks suggesting maybe that not much heat is required to ignite Mg powder?
I tried 2x normally loaded cartridges next and got a good crack as expected, normal ejection and cycling.
Taking these 2 apart showed a nicely punctured hole in each cap.

So clearly next step will be not as much powder to avoid compacting.

Watch this space!

Rizzo, I agree with you in as much that enhanced sounds and digital flash are great for film and video, (as you demonstrate so well!) what I'm after here is a flash that I can create using the model gun at home just for extra effect. Sound levels aren't that critical at home, in fact the least noisy the better for fear of nosey neighbours

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by GZ22

Gentlemen, I have the Holy Grail!

I have been conversing with the Japanese guy who runs the site at the top of this thread, and he has kindly shared with me the secret of his muzzle flash. It is..........available from me for only £1 via PayPal.

Hahha! Only joking!

It seems as though during all our efforts to craft the best muzzle flash we've over-complicated things. Mark mentioned on this forum a long time ago the traditional Japanese way, which is simply using Mg powder filed from a block, and a small disc of plastic. (The type of plastic specifically being Styrene, it comes in different grades, but I think the grade we want is found in those soft, white inner wrappers that brand new video recorders, and other electronics come in when you take them out of the box). Because this plastic is soft, it doesn't block the firing pin in any way, and because it's a hydrocarbon, produces thick black smoke, which burns just outside the muzzle in the flash of the Mg and gives that wonderful, orange colour.

https://2img.net/h/i126.photobucket.com/albums/p108/GZ22/MuzzleFlashStyle.jpg

Additionally, (and slightly off-topic) he told me that he was very surprised to hear that modelguns are being used in foreign countires, and that the modelgun situation in Japan is "in a very lonely state".

I have of course invited him to become a member of this forum!

Enjoy gentlemen!

Regards,

GZ

Hey GZ,

Well now then!....

Your photo's nicely laid out mate, is that the order of assembly then?
Or should the Mg powder be put inside the cap to be struck by the pin?

I've tried a very very similar variation of this photo with Marushin MP40 rounds but using writing paper discs from hole punchers to seal the hole in the 'bullet's' nose and to keep fine Mg powder inside.
The cartridge pin punches through the cap which should've ignited the powder but alas it didn't!
Still thinking though and your info is more food for thought! Thanks GZ!

Cerwyn
_________________
Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by Claymore

First off WELL DONE MATE!!! in getting in contact with him and it would be great if he would join the forum.
Ok nice pic, so the mag powder goes on top of the piston and not in the cap that would certainly stop the problems i had which was too much powder in the cap so the cap would not detonate.
soon as i get time i will give it a go

thanks for the update and dont lose contact with him i would like to know more on the models he has converted so well

Post by GZ22

I should tell you that the pic is actually his, and the way that I understand the method of assembly is this:

The cap goes in the round, the piston is then inserted into the round. The Mg* goes on top of the piston head, the nose cone is then sealed with a disc of Styrene of a thickness between 0.5mm to 1mm.

*Note how little Mg he uses - not enough so as to be left with unburnt powder, but enough to totally consume the Styrene. He tells me that the amount used is 'enough to fill an ear pick' - there are many types of ear pick, but in general all the scooped ones have quite small ends like these:


Let me know how you all get on!

Post by ljerr2

Great! Please post a pic or video of any success you might have with this method. If it gives a good effect, looks like I'll be hunting for some styrene and magnesium!