More Modelgun History Please

Post by GZ22

Unfortunately we are not blessed with a great deal of information regarding the history of model guns. However, I did find this, which is an interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modelguns

Post by Spencerman

Yes, that was a pretty interesting read. I for one enjoy learning about the reasons of how and why certain changes came about, such as the legal aspect to do with the construction, and also the design aspect and the functional side of it. I would really like to know more about those really dear non firing guns that are made, and I forget who by just to help, and I am not sure what models they make, although I belive one to be a M4 or for certain an M16 variant. I am sure that many of you would know of the guns that I refer to, that function exactly like the real gun, and probably cost more also. I would love to see some pictures of those.
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Post by shazhib



1,
Nakata started off it's business as a military surplus shop. Once involved with modelgun manufacturing, but withdraw soon after. Still alive as a military surplus/militaria store.

2,
The model I assume, it was either M92 or 1911. I heard very first HW model was called "SRHW" (super real heavy weight), however, MGC stop selling it soon after since it looks very realistic, MGC afraid another regulatoin to be imposed.

3,
I heard an interesting story the other day. CP rounds was actually innovated by Hudson. Marushin sued Hudson appealing Hudson stealed Marushin's idea, but Marushin lost the case. Hudson and MGC maintained fairly good relation, MGC made a bit of an improvement on what Hudson innovated, then, make it evolved to CP-HW.

4,
After "original" MGC collapsed, Taito took it place, then SNM (Shin Nihon Mokei).

5,
What I heard was, one day, couple robber sneaked into Kokusai's factory. They found nothing precious (money kind), got upset, then, put the fire on the factory. I think Kokusai did not come back, but a company called "Sun Project" is making the revolver models under "kokusai" brand name.

6,
KSC, maybe not the name under KSC before, but did exist as an entity. They undertook some of the parts manufacturing for MGC (Tanaka used to undertook wooden parts for CMC). Some people moved to KSC after MGC collapsed.


7,
Back in 60-70's, small number of brass modelguns were made. Most of the time, they were sold as "custom model", was very expensive.


Maybe I can post some history some time, but it is fairly long and complex. Some of highlights are:

1,
At the very beginning of modelgun industry, MGC made the model(whole sale), CMC or other company sold(retail) these model under different model name.

2,
There was a conflict between MGC and other retailer, MGC stopped supplying the models and set up it's own "MGC BOND SHOP". Others first requested Marushin Die-Cast industry (current Marushin) to make models.
Nakata was one of "others".

3,
Each company getting independent, having their own factory later on. Nakata and Marushin set up a joint venture factory to make a model gun. There was a boy help to make a modelgun who is later a president of "WA", Mr. Keiichi Kunimoto. He started off his "gun" carieer as a "gun action advisor (fast draw, western gun action), set up "Western Arms" later on.

to be continued......

mate, I'm out of "cap", need some sleep.

cheers,

Post by MT01

Thanks John for sharing - makes fascinating reading about the history behind this hobby and its actually quite touching to read about Mr. Kobayashi and his devotion to modelguns - even now.

I think we owe a lot to this gentleman.

It's a shame something like the Internet has taken so long to mature. Can't help thinking that the world of Modelguns would be much bigger now if it had reached a larger audience in its glory days . Without internet (and with thanks to this forum) I would not have known what I do about modelguns today.

Last edited by MT01 on Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total

Post by shazhib


Speaking of Mr. Kobayashi, I should mention Mr. Noboru Mutobe (deceased), an another modelgun legend.

I heard Mr. Kobayashi is a person uses scale and calculator, draw a blue print and do some reasearch when he design a model gun where Mr. Mutobe relied heavily on his sense. Mr. Mutobe sees the gun, then, machined out based on more visual side of source material. If Mr. Kobayashi is a bit more academic approach, then, Mr. Mutobe would be more artistic or sence oriented approach. Mr. Mutobe designed lot of CMC and Marushin model, those modelgun funs who like realistic appearance and mechanics, look for what Mr. Mutobe designed.

Maybe I can post his photo. I think I've see it somewhere in "Gun" magazine I have.

Post by Claymore

Some great info there, MGC refused him the mold, WHY? are they living on this planet no wonder they have gone bust, if anyone should get ther molds then it has to be him.
Got to agree with his statement on the mp40 and sterling 2 of the best modelguns ever.

Post by MT01

I wonder who did get all the moulds in the end?

Shazhib, please do post more info on Mr. Mutobe when you have time. Its good to know who to thank for these models. Can't find much on the web that is in english.

In fact while looking on the web for more info on Mr. Mutobe, I stumbled on this site: http://homepage3.nifty.com/nkoinuma/index.htm

Apologies if this site has already been mentioned in previous posts, but this collector lists a bit about the history for each of his pieces. Mostly in Japanese, but some of it in English. I was intrigued by the AR7 Carbine - didn't know this was made as a modelgun.

Post by shazhib

MT,

Yeah, this guy has a great collection. Let me know if you are interested in a particular model in this site.

AR-7 modelgun did exist. It was made by Western Arms back in early 1980's. I've never actually handed by myself, seem well made model and actually "floatable".

Post by MT01

For me it would be interesting to know more about the AR7 carbine and the .22 Sturm Ruger Automatic Bull Barrel (I think I saw a silenced version of this being used by good old Sly Stallone in 'Assassins')

Would love to get my hands on any of these

Post by shazhib

MT,

Regarding AR-07 carbine, is that one you can put every thing into shoulder stock? or something else?

For Ruger Mark II bull barrel, it was from CMC, the ones in the market are fairly old and I assume it would have hard time finding a replacement parts. If you want brand new, then, one from Marushin, it is airsoft though....

Post by shazhib

Mr. Mutobe used to work at Nakata. As Nakata withdrew from modelgun manufacturing, Mr. Mutobe became independend and be a free lance designer. He also made some custom guns under "Rocken" brand. He involved some designing or making master model, but not "hired" by CMC or Marushin.

Regards,

Post by MT01

Shazhib,

Yep the AR-7 I think was a survival rifle issued to pilots and therefore completely stored within the stock and floatable as you say. First time I ever saw one of these though was in a Bond movie with a silencer and scope - very neat.

As far as the Ruger Bull barrel, would much prefer to handle an old modelgun with a bit of history than an airsoft toy.

Also I wonder if anyone has pictures of what these different companies looked like - e.g inside the factories or workshops where these models were designed or made? Again, I can't really find much info on the web in english

Post by Mark

HIGUsan wrote:

MGC was changed to joint–stock corporation and name Modelgun Corporation in 1981~83.

HIGUsan wrote:

MGC was named Japan Modelgun Collection Association from 1960.

Hmm, I am confused here of the abbreviation of MGC. The abbreviation I thought was always Model Gun Corporation even in the 1960's. MGC was stamped in the modelguns like the MP40 etc. during the late 1960's instead of JMCA or otherwise.
There appears to be quite a bit of general confusion on modelgun history here for some reason. Perhaps it was that it really wasn't viewed as being important enough to be recorded at the time.
The MGC MP40 and the Sterling are both some of the best modelguns that I have in my collection and, the MGC MP40 was the first model-submachine gun that I had experienced..

Post by HIGUsan


Hi Mark,
MGC began to use MGC corporationh several years earlier than I wrote for John.
MGC usually used Bond Shop in Japan.
See PPK handbill, before 1970, written Japan Modelgun collection association.
See SW M44 picture, 1971?, written all name.
Hi Shazhib,
Please write about Mr. Mutobe and Nakata group for modelgun funs who are hungry for information and me.
I have some Nakata and CMCs model guns. Those are my favorite models.
Can we talk in Japanese?

Post by HIGUsan


MGC SW M44

Post by shazhib

Higu-san,

Yes, you can post me a mail anytime to:
emperor@u01.gate01.com

I think we both can contribute a background story about modelgun industry as many of forum members are interested.

regards,

Post by Mark

HIGUsan,

Thanks for the pictures and the information on MGC that I didn't know. I think that you cleared up the misconception that I had on the MGC name. I must admit that I had never seen the use of the term "Japan Modelgun Collection Association" until this discussion. There are allot of details on the modelgun history that are missing that should be brought to light before they are lost.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by HIGUsan

Hi,
Mr. Kobayashi told us. He looked for right mold maker for produce VP2 modelgun in 1962.
When he went some mold maker in May or June, he saw they were molding parts of Hudson's Mauser military pistol in progress there.

Hudson Mauser was started to sell in the summer. MGC VP2 was started to sell from end of 1962.
Hudson's old version Mauser M1896 is the first original modelgun in Japan.

7. Which one is the last MGC full metal model handgun? and when?
Revolver Colt Official Police 1970
Auto Colt M1911A1 (GM3) 1976(?) I know you have same one.

Post by HIGUsan


Hudson old version Mauser. It has streng shape and simple mechanism.

Courtesy of HIGUsan,



From Sep. 1969 to Oct. 20th 1971, modelgun makers put on the crown mark & painted white on the metal modelguns as self regulation & advised by the police.

There were two way, molding by modified molds (pic-01) or press mark after molding (pic-02).





Molds modified type changed again after Oct. 20th 1971 first law regulation (pic-03), note round mark.


SM mark (stands for Safe Model) was used from Nov. 1975, self regulation as advised by police administrative.


SMG (stands for Safe Metal Gun) mark have been used from Dec. 1st 1977 by second law regulation. This is still being used on current production by Marushin, Hudson.
However, I don't find the SMG marks on the Kokusai metal revolvers! Why?

You may check those markings on your metal modelguns.
If you happen to see the old "Crown marks" on your collections, congratulation!


Best regards,

Post by Pydracor

Now THAT is really interesting... I've been asked, why there's a "SMG" mark on my Marushin XM and that's what I found out:

"Note: Submachine gun (SMG) is Colt's terminology. Technically, the true SMG uses pistol ammuntion, but marketing jargon has tended to blur this distinction. The XM-177 series (and its M-4 successor) are actually short rifles that shoot rifle ammunition. They are carbines, but the former was officially listed as a submachine gun and the latter is listed as a carbine."
Forgot where I found that...
On another page it says, that the U.S. Army used the term Submachine Gun for the XM.

While all this is of course true, now it turns out, that the SMG on the Marushin was just the stamp for Safe Metal Gun... that's what I call a coincidence

Post by MadMike

Yes, a lot of people think it is for submachine gun. But the real XM177E2 was stamped "XM177E2", while the earlier XM177E1 had "Commando" stamped on the receiver.

The old, factory assembled versions have a more realistic looking "SMG", as well as the production date. See here:



new version, with new "SMG" marking, without date:



You can find "SPG" on plastic modelguns like the current MGC M4 series, it stands for "Safe Plastic Gun".
_________________
"It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over."