Modelguns in Films

Post by bigbshotya

hows everyone doin!

just wondering if anyone can tell me what kind of guns are mostly used in films these days, i was just wondering because most of the guns you see in moden day films you cant seem get them in a pfc version,

sorry if this seems a waste of a post but it was beginig to get on my nerves wondering.

cheers!

Post by reemo

Depends where they're filming really (country and location).

Some would use real guns firing blanks. Others use gun adapted to 'fire' propane (muzzle flash ahoy) and sounds are added in post production. Others use blanks guns. Some will use modelguns (tpyically lower budget movies filmed in countries with gun restrictions, or in scenes where the loudness of blanks isn't palatable) and some use resin or non-firing replicas and all the effects are added in post production (eg- the church scene in Once Upon a Time in Mexico).

Post by reemo

Modelguns have starred in many hollywood flicks however.......and TV shows......the "A-team" used TONS of MGC replicas...every time I see an early M16 on the A-team, I laugh at the big Allen head bolt where the forward assist should be!!
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Post by MadMike

The early full metal MGC M-16 was used in non-firing scenes on a great scale in FULL METAL JACKET and in the TV-series TOUR OF DUTY. They can be easily recognized due to the allen bolt Reemo already mentioned.

Also resin or wood models are used in war movies for the non firing guns in the background.

Post by Reemo

And modelguns appear in the strangest places - aside from movies. They are everywhere if you are looking for them!!

Check this link to the airborne museum at Saint Mere Eglise....I came across this one the other day.

http://www.eriding.net/media/d-day.shtml

Scroll down a tick to the "Thompson Submachine gun" on display at the museum...third row down all the way to the right.

Click on the thumbnail and laugh!!!
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Post by Claymore

and i thought it was only the Brits who didn't know their arse from their elbow when it came to guns, what a mistake to make or does that show how good a copy these modelguns are.
That said its a good site in its own right Reemo

Couldn't help but notice Rizzo's mention of Propane firing guns?
I assume then that these are the ones that have great big yellow flame out of the barrels as seen in films like King Kong (check the Thompsons) Mummy (Thompson again) and loads of others no doubt.
So it's Propane is it?
How does it work? I'm really curious with this one!

Cerwyn
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Hobby collector of mainly WW2 era uniforms, headgear, field equipment and replica weapons.

Post by 2sharp

I've seen and heard an MG-34 being fired and it had a propane system.

Dind't have any excessive muzzle flash it it sounded surprisingly good.

I got just a quick glimpse of the firing mechanism but if i recall correctly it was controlled electrically and had a "firing chamber" where the propane was ignited electrically.

So the amount of propane to be ignited and the speed at which new propane was allowed into the chamber could be adjusted and thus made to sound like the right rpm for the weapon used.

Hopefully this was of some value to you, sorry i couldn't be more through

There used to be an American company named Irac that made great replica receivers for part kits and they also made propane guns, their website is down and i couldn't find them elsewhere.

A big drawback is that the mechanism isn't realistic, the outside looks great but no [fun] internals.

Google:
http://www.intlrepo-depo.com/guns.htm
http://www.intlrepo-depo.com/BrochureXM1AWord.pdf
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Post by 2sharp



If you just need a pdf reader you can download one here for free: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

If i recall correctly the guns are somewhat costly, but the ammunition should be cheap enough
I bet a tank of propane would last for some time.

I would miss the empty casing and links/belts being everywhere though
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I need more model guns...

The holy quest for modelgun information and knowledge will never-ever end!!

Post by reemo

claymore wrote:

and i thought it was only the Brits who didn't know their arse from their elbow when it came to guns, what a mistake to make or does that show how good a copy these modelguns are.
That said its a good site in its own right Reemo

Yeah, definitely a good museum and a good site......plenty of "eye candy" there for WW2 freaks suchs as us. I love the MP44 above the MGC Tommy! (*Note that it is missing its steel handguard)
As for propane - think ANY Predator movie!!
The HUGE "X" pattern muzzle flash is the sign of the propane burner.

Post by Spencerman

Perhaps that would explain the barrel blockages that can be seen in the first Predator movie quite clearly (I think someone has already posted pics of them on here somewhere), something to do with the propane system?
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Post by Mark

Nice catch on the MGC "Thompson" at the museum Reemo! That's cool that they have one on display. It is rather strange that they don't have an actual 1928 Thompson to display as Europe and the UK seem to awash in deactivated Thompsons. Anyway, it appears their MGC is an early example with the open barrel. It would be nice to see if it's the paper cap firing model or just the cut display only version.
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Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by kickback

Just watched the Predator film again and i think the weapons are definatley blank firiers,the barrel blockage that is seen is a device to stop all of the gas escaping out of the barrel to leave enough in the system to operate the blowback on the weapon,similar to a BFA (blank fire attechment) that is used by the armed services on excersise only on the inside to look realistic for filming...

But i could be wrong lol

Kickback

Post by reemo

Its always a mix - depending on the shot.

Try Robocop 1......the final shootout at the parking garage intended to destroy Murphy.

The scene is at night - all those "X" blasts - always cockeyed too, slightly askew.......propane, propane, propane.

Also, ANY A-team episodes with giant shootouts - you will see it ALL! Propane, blank-firers, and LOTS of MGC guns!
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Post by fightdesigner

You can tell the gas-firing guns beacuse there's often no bolt or slide movement. That's a dead giveaway that it's either a dummy gun with the flash/shells added in post (Once Upon a Time in Mexico) or a gas firing gun. Another example- in Hellboy, the FBI agent takes a shot with his glock outside the museum and you can totally tell.

Here's an example of some movie 'non-guns':
http://www.issprops.com/Weapons/nonguns.htm

I have a side job as a gun wrangler/armorer for local indie films and theatrical productions, but it's all low budget stuff. We use a mix of things, including the occasional real gun firing blanks. Other than the real guns, you can see what I've got at my website

www.fightdesigner.com
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Post by Claymore

Well you learn something new everyday,i was complety unaware of this type of non gun, for me me its the rounds ejecting and the bolts blowing back that that i enjoy so you would lose that, great info though.
slightly off track and not to be discussed further, but as a sword man myself, nice collection there and welcome to the forums by the way.

Post by Phobus

Hey guys ,

I was watching the Michael Mann film Collateral the other night ( seems to like his gun scenes - Heat comes to mind - assault rifles in the city centre !! Awesome )

I found myself rewinding the scene with the Briefcase

" Yo homey - that my briefcase ? " etc and the muzzleflash from the pistol was huge - you need to slow it down as the scene is quick - looks like a Heckler and Koch USP but not certain .

I would imagine in a major production like this Real Steel would be used rather than something like the Tanaka modelgun . Right ?

I was wondering if that would be blanks , propane or done in the studio effect ? Great stuff anyway .

Regards Carl.
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Post by figaro



Check my Imdb, the editor I work with (Ken Blackwell: http://imdb.com/name/nm0085923/) was an assistant editor on Collateral.
They used almost only soft air guns, with the bolt stop fixed, and added all of the muzzle flashes in post.
His job was to temp in the muzzle flashes on the edit system, which were later done by the effects house, they added muzzle flash, shell case ejecting and even light reflection on the actors face and ceiling and clothing.
The plug-ins are very cheap, and actually are all on after effects, if you have the time to explore that program.
I don't know the reasons for this choice, I can guess it was to do with the proximity of the players and safety, maybe?
No model guns were used, no non guns either, by the way these have just become very difficult to rent, the ATF have determined that the camera flash type solenoid used to make the flash can trigger a bomb if misused, too bad for ISS who just bought out the original owner.
This is way off the model gun stream, sorry.

Jesse Johnson
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Post by Phobus

Great information their figaro . By the way what are " plug ins " exactly ? not sure about some of your terminology there .

Fascinating to have access to first hand information about how these films are made , I would never have guessed those were airsofts although you don,t get a chance to see the hardware closely very often .

Maybe the scene with the black jazz guy and the Ruger .22 auto with the BIG barrel .
How did he keep that concealed down his trousers ? .

Regards Carl.
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Marmite enthusiast

Post by SelfLoadingHarry

Indiana Jones And The Temple of Doom (1984)
Take a look- About nine minutes into the movie's opening scene in Shanghai (I don't have it on disc, and quoting an actual running time would be confusing, depending on which TV system you use; different frame rates/timecode), just after Indy and Willy have jumped out the window, and landed in Short Round's backseat.
A brief car chase then ensues- There are two shots of the pursuing henchmen, one of which- The guy in the passenger seat, left of frame- Is firing a Chicago-era Thompson.
Which looks to me like an MGC (?)- Note the 'sparky' muzzle flashes and the same effect coming from the ejection port during both (brief) scenes.
Now, why on Earth (you're doubtless wondering) would a movie with those kind of resources be using a modelgun? See my self-congratulatory Collateral crowing below.
Actually, there could be lots of reasons- One could be that it's a 'hood shot'- A fake car on a soundstage, with the camera very close to the performers, and the muzzle- More importantly the camera operators. Plus there are the other actors in the car- Safety, and pssibly convenience being the reasons.

figaro wrote:

Check my Imdb, the editor I work with (Ken Blackwell: http://imdb.com/name/nm0085923/) was an assistant editor on Collateral.
They used almost only soft air guns, with the bolt stop fixed, and added all of the muzzle flashes in post.

Aha!

Quote :

His job was to temp in the muzzle flashes on the edit system, which were later done by the effects house, they added muzzle flash, shell case ejecting and even light reflection on the actors face and ceiling and clothing.

Thanks! - You've confirmed what I suspected about that scene ever since I first saw it, to say nothing of boosting my opinion of my own cleverness .

Quote :

The plug-ins are very cheap, and actually are all on after effects, if you have the time to explore that program.

Phobus: 'plug-ins' are, uh... add-on bits of software, rather than stand-alone programs, that add a function or capability the software doesn't have out of the box. Picture a photo-editing program that doesn't have 'red-eye' removal- Odds are, you'll be able to buy a plug-in that has the sole job of removing this from photos.
Adobe After Effects is a hugely useful (and used) program for motion graphics and composites- Everybody from your local TV station to the likes of Industrial Light and Magic uses it. Familiar with Photoshop? Think of it as Photoshop for moving pictures. It's not cheap, and very-nonintuitive; learning how to use it is a very steep curve. There are others- Notably Apple's Shake- that offer a cheaper alternative, and the good news is that most AE plug-ins will work with Shake or something similar. There is also at least one stand-alone program for this kinda thing- It's been upgraded, but started out as AlamDV.

Quote :

I don't know the reasons for this choice, I can guess it was to do with the proximity of the players and safety, maybe?

I suspect you're being modest- In contrast to my egomaniacal ravings above- You're absolutely right. Safety; the first, 'N'th and last rule- And proximity (which is what had me wondering in the first place).
Vincent (Cruise) is within touching distance of Mugger #1 when he draws and fires. There's no way- Ever- anyone with an ounce of brain would discharge a 'movie blank' a 'normal blank' or anything else at someone from that distance. It would be almost as potentially injurious/fatal/insane as firing a live round at a performer wearing body armour, never mind issues such as hearing damage and Mugger #2 being struck by flying brass- Same goes for him, by the way. Even if Cruise were 'aiming off' (normal practice- You just don't see it from the camera's point of view) he'd still need to be, what, twenty-plus feet away with blanks?

Quote :

No model guns were used, no non guns either, by the way these have just become very difficult to rent, the ATF have determined that the camera flash type solenoid used to make the flash can trigger a bomb if misused, too bad for ISS who just bought out the original owner.
This is way off the model gun stream, sorry.
Jesse Johnson

Thanks once again for this fascinating information- And never worry; if your post was 'off the model gun stream', this reply is 400K away from the stream, and at 4000M altitude, about to switch to bottled oxygen...
My apologies to all for this, and for doing so without properly introducing myself. I shall do so, ASAP, as soon as my Thorazine kicks in.
Until then...

Post by fightdesigner

I do actually know of groups that have used plugged-barrel (top venting) blank fire guns for point-blank shootings in both film and live theatre.

My personal preference would be for a modelgun (and make sure there's nothing flammable like hairspray nearby!) or gas-blowback, but I'm not going to make a blanket condemnation of anyone who's used the top-venting blank guns for that- assuming they made some allowances for hearing protection.
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It looks like AirSoft models also took over modelguns' places in movies:

Watching the HBO mini series Generation Kill I noticed they use the Classic Army „Armalite M15A4“ AirSoft Carbine in some scenes. I am quite sure as you can see the white Armalite Logo and trade marks. Another thing is that Classic Army uses an odd carry handle design which does not look correct.

Here is the "standard" M4A1/M16A4 carry handle:



And here is the Classic Army "style" (note the different, rounded front end):



More specifically, in Episode four when they bomb the ground after someone reports 140 tanks mistaking the lights of a distant city, a squad of Marines investigate. You can see the Armalite logo.

Episode five, Bravo team separates from Alpha for a mission to save a US Marine and when they were scouting out and a Marine was eating discard meals, you can see the Armalite logo.

I really enjoyed watching the mini series. I have read the book first and was happy that the series pictured the events described in the book very well.
The bad thing is that I ended up buying another M4A1 modelgun for my collection ...

I enjoyed that series too ...typical you spot the M4 usage MM really interesting to hear that even these days big companies like HBO will still use replicas ( obviously a LOT less paperwork and H&S issues than the ones that go bang )

only problem with the series is that it ended too quickly ...that Swedish chap in the lead was pretty cool ( great choice for the iceman role )

Over here I`ve seen him in tru blood as a leading vamp too !

the hurt locker is very good if you havent seen it yet MM

DOC

I also noticed that Sgt. "Iceman" Colbert's M4A1 has the A1 "tear drop" style forward assist plunger instead of the A2 style round one. Really strange ...

I also love Sgt. Maj John Sixta, enforcing the grooming standard and shouting at Sgt. Patrick "Police that mustache"! He has great, comical outbursts, but in the last episode you learn that he is a very smart man and excellent NCO, understanding his role in the unit. When he notices that Manimal is really down after reciving a letter from his wife's lawyer, he says something like "if morale is going down, make sure to let me know, Mike. Maybe I can stir him up a little with the grooming standard" (winking) to Gunny Wynn.

Will have to see The Hurt Locker next.

In Underworld with Kate Beckinsale. I thnk theres a few model guns.

Im pretty sure its a Hudson Desert Eagle in a couple of scenes.