Complete newbie wants 19th century revolvers :)

Hello and happy New Year to everyone.

I've just registered, this is my first post, I'm not even sure I'm in the right section. I'm 31, from Croatia, Europe. I've been fascinated with weapons all my life, especially those from WW2 and Wild West eras. I was still a kid in the mid 80's when I've first heard of Japanese replicas which look/feel like the real stuff. But until 2 days ago I knew nothing about it, never even thought about owning a realistic replicas.

But these last 2 days I've spent searching the web and educating myself in that field. Because now I want to find myself replicas of American revolvers from Civil War / Wild West era - but not just anything. It has to be one of those with longer barrels, like Colt Walker, Colt 1851 Navy, Colt 1861 Navy, Remington New Model Army, Colt Peace Maker Cavalry and Schofield Cavalry. And as realistic as possible, but not insanely expensive. It's not really important to me which type of replica will that be - non-functioning or with some kind of function (airsoft, blanks, gas... I appologize, I'm not so familiar with terminology and all the kinds of replicas). In time, I plan to have at least 2-3 of those mentioned handguns, but now I'm yet to find my first one.

This forum was great help for me yesterday, because I've learned who are the major replica makers, and that I should probably avoid Denix. After many hours of reading dozens of sites, it seems to me that 3 companies have what I need: Hartford, Hudson and Craft Apple Works. (It's also possible that something for me will also have CMC, MGC, RMI, Filipetta and Denix.)

Now, I would really appreciate any kind of help.
There are many questions in my mind.
Will it be legal to buy that kind of replica? Will only some types be legal, while some others illegal? Should I check with Customs in my country? Or with Police? Which brand/manufacturer you recommend, and why? Which is the best way to buy it, directly from the manufacturer, or at some web-shop which sells many brands, or at some auctions site? Do you buy directly from the manufacturer, and if yes, could you please tell me how to do it, if the site is Japanese, and you're from Europe or America? Which web shops / auction sites you recommend? Should I look for new item or used one? Current model or some old one which is not in the production any more? Does anyone here own (or has owned) some replica(s) which interests me? Anything else that you could tell me which and I didn't mention, any advise is most welcome.

THANK YOU.

Hello Mortimer, and welcome to the forum. I am afraid that I cannot help you with regaurds to your local laws, but I am sure that someone on here will be able to help you.

One of the things that is worth remembering about model guns, newer ones at least, is that if they are metal they will have a solid barrel, if they are plastic they will be open. The reason that I mention this first is this. You mention that wanted a peacemaker replica, and there are vertainly a few of those to choose from. If you plan on fast draw and spinning around your finger (dont feel embarressed, we have all done it) then obviously metal is much stronger on the parts like the barrel which may snap if you catch them wrong on a holster. Thing is that you will not get the smoke from the barrel.

Good luck with choosing your first model, keep us informed on what you go with in the end, and I am sure that everyone here will be more than happy to help if you have any questions about specific models before or after you get one.

Spencer-Man wrote:

If you plan on fast draw and spinning around your finger

Hey, my first conversation in the world of gun replicas! Hello to Brighton, one of my best friends moved there a few months ago.
Thanks, but I don't intend to get a holster or to practice anything with my gun. I'm a movie freak, spaghetti westerns are one of my favourite (sub)genres. Characters in some of those films use those older and longer revolvers (like the types I've mentioned). I want to have a few of them, they will never leave my room, I'll just have them displayed somewhere on the wall. And of course sometimes when I watch my favourite Lee Van Cleef / Clint Eastwood scenes I would like to have them near my hand.

IF I can choose, I would rather own a replica which can perform some action, fire blanks or someting... but that's not imperative, that's the least important. Maybe I'll be alowed to import in country only the solid-barrel model. In that case, OK.

If I ever become reach, I'll buy the whole arsenal of all kinds of airsoft guns to play with my (almost-middle-aged) friends (WW2 Thompson is especially dear to us)... but until them, I'll just try to afford a couple of big Old West guns for display.

Now, since I'm no expert, maybe you could recommend me some good books about handguns from Civil War / Wild West era? I would like a book(s) with lots of good pictures, covering all the revolvers from that period, so that I can have a reference, to check how realistic replicas are, and of course to learn something about those guns. I saw on eBay and Amazon some, but I don't know which one are the best ("Guns of the Old West", "Civil War pistols", "Colt's", "Colt - An American legend", "Confederate handguns", "Smith and Wesson 1857-1945", "The revolver 1865-1888"...).

At this moment, these are the models which interest me most:
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/peacemaker_cavalry.htm
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/cavalryschofield.htm
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/51navy.htm
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/61_navy.htm
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/modelarmy.htm

Hi mortimer and welcome to the forum. if you want a replica gun that fires blanks then the best is made by a company called pietta they do 9mm blank firing versions of colnt navy and remington models all full steel a company called sutlers in the UK used to sell them but in the last few months have had difficulty getting them, oh! and the forward vent as well but you will have to check your laws to see if it would be legal to import from outside your country. The japanese replicas are very good and are cheaper than the pietta models, you used to be able to get blocked barrel steel 9mm blank firers of these models here in the UK but not seen themfor some time i am sure they are still available somewhere in europe though. of course this depends on your budget but take a look at www.sutlers.co.uk. for the pietta models.

Thanks claymore, that's a good site, haven't seen it before. I've heard yesterday for Pietta, but I thought that's a factory which produces real weapons. Now, to me those guns look look like a real ones, but I still like better how those from my links look. We'll see in the end... Interesting, Sutlers has uniforms! But unfortunately, I don't see German ones... bad guys always have the best clothes.

Welcome to the forum Mortimer, it is always a great pleasure to greet new members into our midst.

I'm really happy to read that you have found a wealth of useful information here already, and also that you've already discovered that the members here are always very willing to help.

I must admit that I personally do not have much experience with Revolvers as such, my interest in Modelguns stemmed from my interest in WW2 but has evolved a lot since I started.

It would certainly be adviseable to find out if Croatian laws allow the import of Replica guns into the Country. If they do, then what restrictions are imposed. Your Customs Offices should be able to help you obtain answers.

If you may import replicas, cap firing PFC Modelguns can be ordered from the following sellers please note most of us, (if not all of us) have bought from these guys and I'm 100% confident that each one of us would highly recommend each one:

Francky (Forum member) www.franckys-modelgun.com (based in Tokyo)
Shazhib (Forum member) contact by PM here on the forum (based in Tokyo)
Modelgun Collector UK www.modelguncollector.co.uk (based in UK)
PlugFireCapGuns.UK www.plugfirecapgunsuk.com/ (based in UK)
Modelguns-Worldwide www.modelguns-worldwide.com (based in France)

Please do let us know how you get on, and if there's anything we can help you with, don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks Cerwyn. You're the owner of this forum? Congratulations, it's a serious little community. I like that, specialised forums where people care and know about what they're talking about. I don't like those big forums about everything, where thousands of people talk about thousands of things, and usually no-one really knows anything.

I also have a huge interest in WW2, especially in naval battles, especially North Atlantic theatre (= U-Boot warfare). But they're still not producing realistic full-scale replicas of german submarines (which can fire dummy torpedos, of course)...

...so I'll stick with these Old West handguns.

Today I heard a few things:
There are lots of airsoft clubs here in Croatia, started in the last few years. They all buy weapons from the outside and they don't have problems with importing them into country. One guy I know ordered AK-74 on-line, without problems with the Customs. Ony day he was driving with that AK in the back of his car, when police stopped him, a routine check. They asked what he got in the trunk, and he tell them - air gun. He had to show it to them, of course. Police officers were surprised, because they didn't know about realistic replicas at all. They even tried it, and they were amused, thrilled!
People say that maybe we don't even have regulations about airsoft and other model guns, and that Costoms and Police probably know nothing or little about it. That can be good for me - if they'll just see my revolver as a toy. Or that can be bad for me - if they'll just see my revolver as a weapon, because it looks like a real weapon. But I hope that I'll manage to import it without much hustle, if it's true that airsoft clubs don't have trouble with it. In worst case, I can ask some club to help me get it.

Now, thanks for those links.
franckys-modelgun and modelguncollector have a few models which I find interesting, but I think modelguns-worldwide is still the best site for me. As far as I can see, plugfirecapgunsuk doesn't have what I want, but it has nice explanations of some basic and important terms, which I need at this point.

Hi Mortimer,

I'm merely looking after the forum, I don't own it. The original forum was born around Noveber 2004, owned by Mark from Washington USA.

Mark hasn't been around for awhile so I'm just looking after it. I'm really pleased you find the forum informative and helpful, thank you !

I first learned of PFC modelguns about 5-6 years ago. I stumbled accross this forum one day and found everyone to be extremely helpful, enthusiastc, and very welcoming to newcomers like myself.
I'm happy to say that helpful welcoming strength is still here and continues.

I've no doubt you'll find the modelgun(s) you're looking for either from one of the dealers listed or it may be worth posting a Wanted Ad' in the Buy/Sell category.

Let's hope you never meet an armed policeman that finds your model revolver so lifelike he's fooled into thinking it's real
Probably a good idea to make sure you don't point it at anyone

How embarrassing, I forgot to mention. One of the things that you will find with model guns is that many of the models carry the trademarks and engravings of the real gun, unlike blank guns or airsoft ones. Having said that, Pietta does indeed make real guns also, so the finish should be second to none on those blank guns that Claymore mentioned, just stay well clear of the cheap bbm rubbish. Another thing with model guns is that the caps are not as lound as blanks, so if you wanted to pop off a couple of rounds at the good or the bad guy whichever takes your fancy, then you can. If you want a silver model, then it is worth remembering that you can polish a gold metal one and make it turn silver.

Definately worth checking into your laws. Here in the UK if a gun is over a certain age then it falls into a different category legally, as does certain newer guns of historical value, so it really is a minefield, but worth knowing what you can and cant have, as maybe a little further down the road it could make a big difference to what model you do end up getting, and also whether you can import from different places which could save you loads of money too.

I've just send mail to Francky, inquiring about this:
www.franckys-modelgun.com/DSCN0378.jpg
www.franckys-modelgun.com/DSCN0379.jpg
Have you ever seen something so beautiful!?
I think I'm in love, guys...

That Hudson is the only piece I've found for myself at Francky's, but modelguns-worldwide has more Hudson for me.

I'm definitely buying THIS! www.modelguns-worldwide.com/mad_max.htm
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/mmax13.jpg - is this UBER-COOL or what?! :afro:

Than there's the most expensive model I choosed so far (and unfortunately sold-out at the moment, but I'll have strong faith): www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/schoc7.jpg - that's legendary S&W Model No. 3 ''Schofield'' Cavalry from CAW.

Two more CAW's for me:
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/61navy3.jpg - this is an absolute must-have, two would be even better! www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/61navy6.jpg
And then there is this black beauty, dark knight, I would be a fool not to get THIS: www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/51navy5.jpg

For me, modern guns just can't compare...

Spencer-Man wrote:

Pietta does indeed make real guns also, so the finish should be second to none on those blank guns that Claymore mentioned, just stay well clear of the cheap bbm rubbish.

Another thing with model guns is that the caps are not as lound as blanks

If you want a silver model

Definately worth checking into your laws. Here in the UK if a gun is over a certain age then it falls into a different category legally

Thanks for all the advices and care!
What is "cheap bbm rubbish"?
Pietta may produce the most realistic replicas (I don't know, I'm not the expert, I'll believe what you guys say), but I much more like the look of models on the above links. Sutlers sells several very nice models, especially 1858 Remington Army (that's Pietta, right?), but they're more expensive and still not as good-looking as the ones I already choosed. Am I a fool for falling just on the look from the photos? But then again - I'm buying them for display.

Thanks for pointing out the loudness differences. But I'm not sure if I get the difference between caps and blanks.

I'm not really for the shining models. Silver can look beautiful indeed, but if you check links I've put here, you'll understand what I prefer. But I prefer silver look on the handguns from the 1960's-90's period, though.

Also, I saw some photos of solid barrel guns - like this Colt: www.franckys-modelgun.com/DSCN4743.jpg - and I'm getting the feeling I wouldn't be really happy with it. So, I want open barrel, and I want to be able to fire some caps or blanks if I feel like doing it on New Year's eve or something.

Laws, laws... you know, I'm that kind of person, when I really want something, nothing can stop me. I know now what I want, and I'll find a way, no doubt about that.
"if a gun is over a certain age" - do you mean: when replica was made, or when real weapon was made? I already know about some regulation (must be a work of a law genius) that replicas of guns prior to 1870 are legal, and replicas of guns from the later period are illegal.

To put it simply, caps are loud enough to be fun to shoot indoors, repeatedly,even with full automatic modelguns without scaring neighbours to death.
When I do get the opportunity to fire my models, I can go through 100-200 caps without disturbing anyone.
I made the mistake of firing an 8mm Blank Fire Walther P38 indoors once... I shan't do so again, my ears rang for an hour later and repeated shots would have alerted neighbours without question.
Caps are a distinct advatage for indoor firing.

All metal model handguns made by Japanese manufacturers are required by Law to have blocked barrels. If you want open barrels you'll have to look towards ABS and HWABS models.

Sounds like your collection is going to expand very quickly

Hi Newbie ...certainly nice to see someone with all that fresh enthusiasm for modelguns

however ....

Id advise you buy one of the HW ABS models first ( dont buy loads in one go ) and make sure you like the modelgun thing...

As mentioned above they are not exactly the thing you would stand outside firing to celebrate the start of new year ( champagne popping would be louder )

A pietta blank pistol would be better for this

however if you wanted to sit watching " outlaw josey wales " and popping away then they are ideal

Read the review on the mad max shotgun as Hudsons quality control is pretty low at the moment ( the company is closing )

last thing Id say is dont be too dissapointed if something breaks ...it happens !

DOC

Cerwyn wrote:

caps are loud enough to be fun to shoot indoors

Thanks! But I doubt I'll shoot indoors. Now, from some picturs (from few sites which are mentioned in this thread), I don't see visual difference between caps and blanks. I thought that caps will be very small. And please explain me this: can caps and blanks both go into the same model, or every model is design specifically to hold either caps or blanks?

Cerwyn wrote:

All metal model handguns made by Japanese manufacturers are required by Law to have blocked barrels. If you want open barrels you'll have to look towards ABS and HWABS models.

Ah, so that's the catch with metal models. Only Pietta makes metal replicas with open barrels? But I think I won't go with Pietta.
ABS is Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene, and HW is "heavy weight"? So, just how much metal-like does it look/feel? Will I be dissapointed, thrilled...?

Mortimer wrote:

I don't see visual difference between caps and blanks.

There is a huge difference (or rather a small confusion). Blanks look like normal ammo, except they are crimped without a bullet itself. Cap is just a small plastic 7mm or 5mm wide "cup" with 0.01g of red phosphorus inside. Cap gets loaded inside a cartridge that looks like ammo - probably that's what you mean :-)

Caps and blanks will not go to the same model. Caps are weak, so cartridges, barrels, slides, frames and all other parts are very weak. Using a blank an a cap-firing model would destroy it (or damage if it is a metal model). Heck, even caps are strong enough to damage models...

ABS is a plastic that you will find everywhere, in car inside and most of equipment around. HW is ABS mixed with zinc filings. It does feel much more real than ABS (heavier, colder and better surface), but it is nowhere near real metal.

It's probably best to get the first model and make your own opinion based on that. Beware, as not all models are similar - my first modelgun was MGC 1911 and I thought that all models are so loud. The problem was that MGC 1911 is one of the loudest models I've seen, so everything else was a bit more disappointing about sound ;-) For touch&feel it was pretty good though and gave me an accurate feeling.

DOC wrote:

buy one of the HW ABS models first ( dont buy loads in one go )

Thanks for advise, but of course I planned it that way. One by one, my collection of those several replicas will probably take 2 years. I can't afford faster tempo, and I need to see how things will go with the Customs, and will I still have that enthusiasm to give more money after I get my first gun...

DOC wrote:

Read the review on the mad max shotgun as Hudsons quality control is pretty low at the moment ( the company is closing )
last thing Id say is dont be too dissapointed if something breaks ...it happens !

You're killing me.
Ok, thanks for telling me that.
First, where can I read that review? That shotgun looks really good. Anyone knows something more about this specific replica (version with real wood)?
Second, I thought Hudson is one of better companies... why are they closing? People buy from other companies, or people generally don't buy replicas anymore because of bad economical situation worldwide?
How can I won't be too dissapointed if something breaks? I can buy less than 3 Mad Max shotguns for my monthly salary, and I have very good salary for Croatian standards. The good thing is that I'm buying replicas for display mainly, so it's not likely they'll broke, but if they do broke... then we can't really talk about quality, can we? And prices are not so small.
Now, please tell me DOC - did you speak only about Mad Mad shotgun, or about Hudson models, or about plastic models in general, or about all replica guns?

I'm sorry if I'm becoming boring with all this questions. Too many things to find out before I invest my hard earned money... and I'm in totally new field.

Just two more questions please, concerning Mad Max shotgun (but could also be applied generally).

www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/mmax13.jpg
www.modelguns-worldwide.com/images/mmax12.jpg
When I see those photos, I don't know what's stopping me from putting the real ammo in it? Are there some obstacles in barrel or is the barrel more narrow than barrel of real shotgun?

www.franckys-modelgun.com/francky1957-img600x450-1166255886dscn2654.jpg
www.franckys-modelgun.com/francky1957-img600x450-1166256312dscn26511.jpg
Francky calls the green ones "shotshells", and the red ones "gas shotshells", both for Mad Max shotgun. What is the difference?

Thank you all.

Thanks smootik for great explanation!

Hudson was one of companies that produced new models (AK47, Nambu) instead of making just a version of old ones (Colt 1911, Beretta 92), but due to some issues (including economical situation) they could not work any longer. Information why they close is in this thread:
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-news-f3/hudson-to-close-t1813.htm

Price/quality ratio for modelguns is often not that great :-/ This is one of disappointing things - it certainly was disappointing to me. Modelguns are more expensive than real guns, I would expect top design and quality, but most of models have some well-known faults.

Mad max shotgun was produced in two versions: cap firing, and airsoft gas blow-back. The green ones from Francky are for cap-firing version (you can see three holes for three caps), while the red one is loaded with gas (silver valve at the back) and fires an airsoft bb (through the single hole in the front).

You could probably insert a real ammo into the modelgun, but I don't think the hammer would have enough force to detonate it. If it did detonate, you would probably loose your hand - barrels are all plastic ;-) The have metal detonator pin inside, as well as a vertical metal insert to prevent trying to launch something from the barrel when cap fires.

Mortimer wrote:

Thanks smootik for great explanation!

No problem :-)
I had a lot of questions myself before buying the first modelgun, and I have to admit that until you hold one of models in your own hands it is very difficult to really _understand_ answers. Always expect less than you think, this is better than disappointment ;-) As I managed to see more modelguns, I have now enough base for comparison and better understanding of others. Once you get your first modelgun, it will be also easier for us to explain you something about other modelguns - writing for example "it is better finish than one that you have, but it is not so loud".

You can also buy an airsoft mad max shotgun which takes gas shotgun shells. These will not fit in the model gun. Model guns have a pin inside the barrel which goes up into the end of the cartridge (where it looks like a hollow point) and that is how they strike the cap. This also prevents inert/live ammo or blanks to be chambered in the models.

If you check out the review section on this forum then you will find loads of info and pictures about many models, and they will probably give you a faily good and honest idea about the quality, plusses and minuses about each of the models that you want to get, providing that someone has reviewed it of course. Remember, these reviews are written by collectors trying to give an unbiased opinion (and it is only that, one persons opinion) on a model, not trying to sell it to you. You will also of course see what other people have respoded and whether thier model has the same faults etc.

https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/

Have a look and see what you find.

One really bad thing about modelguns: when you have bought one, many others (sometimes too much) will follow
This time for real: the most disappointing thing about modelguns is the quality. As you said they cost a lot of money, and I don't dare to shoot with them because I'm afraid they will break or get damaged. But I also like to have them in my hands, just handling them without the shooting.

I've read that link smootik. So you have Mad Max shotgun? I saw your photo, I must say I'm dissapointed. But I'll probably buy it one day nevertheless.

smootik wrote:

Modelguns are more expensive than real guns

Funny that you mention that. Today I talked to guys from Customs. They never saw realistic replica of gun, only a few times cheap replicas of Oriental swords and flintlock pistol. When I told them the prices, they became suspicious, telling me that what I want to import may not be harmless replica, because for that price or less I can buy a real gun.
And by the way, they told me that "there shouldn't be problems" with importing the replica, but that they may have to inform the police if they won't be sure about my revolver when it come.

smootik wrote:

Mad max shotgun was produced in two versions: cap firing, and airsoft gas blow-back.

But here www.modelguns-worldwide.com/mad_max.htm they say "two Hudson 12 gauge cartridges (option: green or red cartridges) and 1 box of PFC caps (100 PFC caps)."
So, does it mean that you're wrong and that shotgun can in fact fire both tipes of shotshells I mentioned in previous post... or does it mean only that cap firing shells exist in two different colors, while both colors are the same type of shell?
If the later is correct, than please tell me which version of Mad Max shotgun you have, cap or airsoft?

smootik has a cap firing madmax, but is possible that the carts for the cap firing version were made in green and red.
only the picture you show us from Franky's site with the red carts, these carts are for airsoft version.

yellow wrote:

the most disappointing thing about modelguns is the quality. As you said they cost a lot of money, and I don't dare to shoot with them because I'm afraid they will break or get damaged

So that's the TRUTH?
So, mine will really be only for display... oh, well...

Spencer, thanks for link, I'll check it right away.

Mortimer wrote:

I've read that link smootik. So you have Mad Max shotgun? I saw your photo, I must say I'm dissapointed. But I'll probably buy it one day nevertheless.

I do have a cap-firing one, and I do not regret it :-) It just feels great when watching a movie, especially Mad Max ;-D

Colour of MadMax shells does not mean cap/airsoft version. As far as I know cap-firing version has both green and red colour shells. It is just coincidence that Francky has shown separate colours for different versions :-)

BTW - check out these 12 Gauge Shotgun Shell Lights ;-)
http://www.lonestarmusic.com/artists.asp?id=891

https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/caw-colt-model-61-navy-t315.htm
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/hartford-hws-colt-saa-fast-draw-special-t314.htm
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/caw-craft-apple-works-2nd-generation-colt-saa-hw-t313.htm
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/hudson-s-mad-max-sawed-off-shotgun-t249.htm
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/hudson-s-colt-saa-peacemaker-t241.htm
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/caw-s-schofield-revolver-t238.htm

Everything that interests me - no more photos.

By the way, this is the thread I've found with Google a few days ago:
https://mp40modelguns.forumotion.net/modelgun-reviews-f4/denix-replicas-overall-review-t809.htm
- that's how I discovered this forum.