Is there interest for a "NEW" all steel STEN MkII?

Post by Doc

Like the Title says I was wondering if there was any interest for a "new " made steel construction Sten MKII ???? (yes in steel )

This has come about from discussions between a UK modelgun retailer (MGC) and a chap I know who makes 9mm blank firing stens .
(amazing what pub talk comes up with !)

They would meet current UK home office regulations (i.e be unable to convert to fire live ammo) and hopefully be front venting.

made to use genuine Sten mags and use either hudsons 9mm or MGC 9mm carts.

unfortunately this may only apply to the UK market or where there are no modelgun "issues" like some parts of the US.

This is early stages at the moment and there will be some figuring out to do.

just wondering what sort of interest there may be.

oh yes the important bit...price would be about £400 (ish) GBP

views/ comments chaps ...........

oh and yes this may have to be a short term production run with the VCR bill looming .
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Claymore

Count me in on that and £400 sounds like a good price, my hudson sten is great but a steel one but be a lot better.

Post by Doc

Cheers for that Claymore.

I need to get an idea of numbers to convice this chap that modelguns are just as desirable as BF Stens.
As he`s a professional armourer with lots of Sec 5 weapons he sort of views modelguns as a bit ....... well , he doesn`t see the point in them.

(silly man needs an education methinks )
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by MadMike

Well, that sounds interesting and GBP 400 would be a good price for such a special production. And if it comes from MGC (modelguncollector). I am convinced everything should be fine, including after sales service! I would be interested.

But I fear most reenactors and other people "in need" for a full metal replica would prefer a blank firing version ...

Post by Spencerman

Although I can see the preference for a blank firing version, I would imagine that there would not be a great deal of difference between that and a pfc version, and the pfc version would be quieter, allowing it to be more user friendly. Blanks are great, but you cannot use them indoors (way too loud) and you cannot use them at close range (safely). Pfc is perfect for stage productions etc. Also there is the more realistic looking cartridge with the pfc (real look) as opposed to blanks.

"If he builds it, they will come"
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Post by allenb

Spencerman - !!

Doc - I agree with Claymore in that the Hudson version is nice - but a steel one would be much nicer. So as long as the detail was right (I've seen some blank firing stens that didn't look "right") I would have one mate.

BTW Does he make MP40's??

Post by Doc

Yes the BF and PFC ones would be very similar apart from the breech having to have an easily removed detonator pin for cleaning and the bolt could not be the heavy steel one in the BF versions.
Ok I can see there is a bit of interest.

I`ll put this forward and see where we go next.

(probably to get some photos of the BF ones he makes so everyone can see the quality)

No he can`t make MP40s as there is a lot more complicated stuff going on there (he only does the BF kits for the MP40s)

He sent me some photos of steel templates for the PPSH BF but you ended up having to find a lot of extra parts ,stock, trigger guard , barrel jacket , magazines etc.
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Mark

That's a great idea and I am sure that they would sell quickly! Now, the question is, which version to make, the Hudson type with the pivoting magazine housing (did the actual Sten MK2 magazine housing pivot?) or the CMC version with the non-pivoting mag housing?

Also, the CMC Stens stock assembly is a copy of the later? Sten design and the Hudson is a earlier? version. The CMC Sten's front sight is incorrectly mounted on the magazine housing..So, there are minor differences between them. (Magazine housings,Stocks, Bolts, Cast/stamped receivers etc.)
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Doc

Hi Mark

yes the MKII housing pivoted for ease of transportation (and for parachute container drops )

Well I have mentioned to them that "modelgun types" prefer accuracy so the chaps are currently looking at how much work to "retro fit " their BF Stens to be as accurate and correct as possible.

The question of the bolt :

As weight is of the issue it may be best to go for a hard grade light alluminium (a little out of my depth with grades of alloys)

Alternativly a special lightweight steel bolt may be the way but this may too time consuming to make.

If they can source real MKII sten stocks cheap enough how does everyone feel about these being used ? or at least get one any copy it.

In line with this question, what sort of finish would be best .
1. Brand spanking new looking as if just out of a WW2 factory
2. a more "worn" finish so would look collector "authentic"

As a re-enactor I would actually prefer more "used looking" but then I`m used to seeing lots of real ones at our displays.
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by kickback

Hi Doc,

I personally would prefer a new looking model and if the models look like there counterparts then you can count me in for one too.


Kickback

Post by Doc

Mark with reference to Sten transportation, a couple of images here :

http://freespace.virgin.net/kev.rachy/Modelgun%20parts/index.html

one shows the Stens with the housings rotated for transport, the other shows them being shifted in typical British fashion !

don`t think we`ll get them made fast enough to need a wheelbarrow though !!!
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Doc

I too would prefer a "fresh from the factory" finish as I would use it as a collectors piece/display item and not for reenactment.

Post by Doc

Little update.

There is the possibility of using Real MKII stocks (refinished) and they have also found a limited supply of front sights.
I presume this means the first few will have real front sights (in the right place)


also the trigger will either be Hudson or a real one.

everybody ok with this ?
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by MadMike

Using real parts is always great as no copy can be as realistic as the real part. But would using real gun parts be a problem in legal respect?

Post by Claymore

All this sounds great so far, i cant make my mind up between used or new look though. I am all for as many real parts on the model as poss and from what you are saying Doc looks like i am going to have one of the first off the line with real sights etc.
This all sounds very good i hope it goes through.

Post by Doc

In reply you your valid question madmike.

Within the UK you are allowed to use a few "real gun" parts on either blank firers or modelguns.

Things like stocks and sights etc are always ok .

This armourer is very familiar with the specifics of these laws so will ensure nothing would be used that may cause issues .

While these will meet all UK guidelines I cannot say 100% for any other country until its been properly looked into.

more info when I have it.

DOC
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by GZ22

Just wondering if any other BF can be made, ie: MP5? Or does that also fall at the same hurdle as an MP40 would?

Post by MadMike

I am not an expert on modelguns, nor on real guns, but I think the fact that the Sten was a very simple design for fast and cheap mass production favours the modelgun project. A MP40 or a modern MP5 seem to be much more sophisticated to me. But I may be wrong.
Keep us updated Doc!

Post by Mark

Doc,

I would think that the new version would be preferable to most people as the worn finish can be easily duplicated! While I would certainally like to have one of these new all steel Sten modelguns, I am sure that the ATFE would not approve their importation until they where given one to inspect and even so, they would likely not grant importation (too easy to convert etc.)




I believe that I have finally discerned just what that strange MGC MP40 tool in your pictures does! I think that it is meant to hold the receiver while the barrel nut is un-screwed by placing the small end of the tool into the sling ring.

Also, that MGC Ingram MAC 11 to M76 suppressor adaptor is cool and it is in two of my MGC catalogs.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms

Post by Doc

Ok "New look" it will be then, although original stens were just painted black.

I saw an ad somewhere for the correct formulation paint so if I can find it again I`ll mention this .

I`ve suggested to perhaps use the MGC Thompson style of chamber ( remade for 9mm ) to make it simple / easily removable and as far as I`m concerned they work pretty good.
This chamber/pin will be released by one central screw under the gun and have small holes drilled into the back to allow for front venting (with a steel rod meeting current hardness regs welded in the barrel)
I`ll make sure spare chambers/bolts are available from the word go so there will be no concerns over "essential spares"

I think best to go with the MGC 9mm cartridge as its pretty common amongst most peoples collections ... yes ?

Mark, would the ATF have to had a look at your CMC one as they are pretty solidly made if you know what I mean.

You know I think you are bang on about the odd MGC tool, I`ll dig it out later and confirm it.
I`d also be interested to see the magazine bit that shows my M76 supressor adapter if I could ?
I`ll PM you my email address .

GZ22 in answer to your question, yep this chap is a pretty clever bloke and has lots of firearms experience (working in the trade) so I dare say given enough time he could make anything. I know he has built a few Thompsons as BF but TBH with the concerns over the arrival of the VCR bill and time running out he is trying to keep it as simple as possible hence the small leap from his BF Stens to modelgun ones .
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Doc

Ok basic design sorted, they have some things to get finished off with other projects and then they are going to start making one in a little over a weeks time .

I expected to be able to personally test one in 3-4 weeks time (long story) but we should have some video photos before then .

DOC
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Claymore

This sounds fantastic Doc, i did not expect things to move so fast. The mgc thonpson chamber is perfect, i have used one in my open barrel thompson (its old and used to fire paper cap rounds so chamber and pin needed changing) with a few holes dilled and it works great also mgc rounds also great choice sig 220 seems to be the one usually used my uzi and nakata mp40 now fire these and work great with them.

Yes spare bolts and chambers will be a must. From the sound of everything looking forward to getting one.

Post by Doc

well, can`t afford to hang about with looney government Bills looming....

The chamber will be machined from scratch in 9mm and be thicker to incorporate the feed angle for the cartridge but using the quick removal style of the Thompson so they can be cleaned easily .
_________________
We need guns...lots of guns....

.... well anything mechanical that can kill people is interesting ...

Post by Spencerman

With reguards to the cartridges, I assume that when you mention the mgc ones, these would be the same type as in the Beretta, and the same type as the Mulberry Field Real Look cartridges? If so, then yes, I agree it would be a good choice, as there is plenty of cartridges to choose from style wise, and they seem to be fairly reliable and easy maintenance. I hate this talk of the vcr bill ruining things, if this is so I may not get a chance to get round to getting one myself, as there are a few other things that I need to sort first, but then having said that, I am sure that there will be a way that I could buy maybe enough spare parts to build one myself or something? Or maybe a swap for something, that I could then buy back? I guess that time will tell what loopholes there will be, and I am sure that as with any silly law, they will be plentiful and make the new bill unenforceable, but we shall see.
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Post by Mark

The MGC/KSC M93R cartridges are the best and they are some of the easier to get cartridges and they work. Either that or use Marushin MP40 cartridges as they work if you load them correctly..

Doc,

I am sure that the CMC was ok due to the fact that it was made by a modelgun company and I am sure that it was on an approved list of importable replicas. Now, if it is made by an individual with out submitting a sample to the ATFE to see if it is approved as a non-firearm.
_________________
Wanted to buy: MGC Sten MK3....trades?(still)

MGC MP40 Marushin MP40 Nakata MP40 TRC MP40

Modelgun manufacturers, past and present:CMC,CAW,Hudson,HWS,LS,MGC(R.I.P. 1960's~2007) Marushin,Marui,Kokusai,Shoei,Tanaka and Western Arms